7 foot hose and Snorkel problems

[DaleC]

I think the snorkel haters are the ones who is only fixated on one type of diving. Sure, if you only dive from a boat, and will get picked up from a boat, snorkels aren't really a part of the schedule. Also applicable to cave diving. I likewise don't advocate wearing a snorkel off the mask if you aren't going to use it as an integral part of the dive. There is a difference between saying: "snorkels are not relevant to my way of diving" and saying "snorkels are not relevant to diving".

If it's not needed, don't bring it. If it may be needed, clip it off or stick it in a pocket like an smb. If it's a planned part of the dive attach it. Just because some people use it (or attach it) without skill doesn't render the tool non valuable. But I ask, where did they learn that? Do dive professionals present skilled information to students (gained via experience) or just ignore the potential and say "always wear it or throw it on the shelf after training" like someone who lacks experience. Is that something a dive professional should understand or that a non professional should point out on the internet.

Those who think the historical use of snorkels, or skindiving, is accidental or non relevant sort of miss the bigger picture and that's why they make incorrect comments. It's not the snorkel that is so important but the hours and hours one spends in the water becoming used to that environment that is. Sure you don't need that. You can spend the first part of your expensive SCUBA training struggling with putting your face in the water, learning how to equalize, clear the mask, getting freaked out by some water in the mouth etc... or you can already be competent in dealing with those issues. You can make your first ocean dive the first time you've been under scary water, the first time you've been in current, the first time you've been in waves, stressed while also being task loaded with 70-80lb's of awkward gear or... make it a natural extension of what you are already used to. For someone to consider themselves progressive and miss that is pretty weird.

But, if you don't personally like skindiving, or can't make money off people spending time doing it, I can see why one would minimize it's importance.

 

[beanojones]

I'd avoid the 90 degree swivels -- mine is a fixed 90 degree adapter. The swivels fail, sometimes spectacularly.

I'm not sure what the difference is.

All adaptors swivel, like al the second stage joints, and thus are labeled that way. The 90 swivel I think you are referring to is actually called a 360 hemisphere adaptor.

 

[Redshift]

I'm not sure what the difference is.

All adaptors swivel, like al the second stage joints, and thus are labeled that way. The 90 swivel I think you are referring to is actually called a 360 hemisphere adaptor.

A swivel rotates, the fixed 90º adapter is fixed and, thus, more robust.

Swivel


Fixed

 

[chrisch]

.... You can spend the first part of your expensive SCUBA training struggling with putting your face in the water, learning how to equalize, clear the mask, getting freaked out by some water in the mouth etc... or you can already be competent in dealing with those issues. ....

I don't know about North America but scuba training here in Europe has never been cheaper. The fierce competition and over supply of OWSI plus the willingness of newly qualified OWSI to work for nothing is a big part of it I'm sure. The cost of learning is now (adjusted for inflation) about one third of what it was when I learned. The PADI OW course is still 4 days end to end. The new safety rules mean that teaching diving requires surface cover and a stand by diver. If you take that into account as extra overheads the cost of learning now is probably less than one fifth of 25 years ago. Air travel is stupid cheap - so cheap we are going to have battery acid for seawater soon. You can fly to the Red Sea for a week and learn to dive for the same price as a drysuit.

 

[beanojones]

I think the snorkel haters are the ones who is only fixated on one type of diving. Sure, if you only dive from a boat, and will get picked up from a boat, snorkels aren't really a part of the schedule. Also applicable to cave diving. I likewise don't advocate wearing a snorkel off the mask if you aren't going to use it as an integral part of the dive. There is a difference between saying: "snorkels are not relevant to my way of diving" and saying "snorkels are not relevant to diving".

If it's not needed, don't bring it. If it may be needed, clip it off or stick it in a pocket like an smb. If it's a planned part of the dive attach it. Just because some people use it (or attach it) without skill doesn't render the tool non valuable. But I ask, where did they learn that? Do dive professionals present skilled information to students (gained via experience) or just ignore the potential and say "always wear it or throw it on the shelf after training" like someone who lacks experience. Is that something a dive professional should understand or that a non professional should point out on the internet.

Those who think the historical use of snorkels, or skindiving, is accidental or non relevant sort of miss the bigger picture and that's why they make incorrect comments. It's not the snorkel that is so important but the hours and hours one spends in the water becoming used to that environment that is. Sure you don't need that. You can spend the first part of your expensive SCUBA training struggling with putting your face in the water, learning how to equalize, clear the mask, getting freaked out by some water in the mouth etc... or you can already be competent in dealing with those issues. You can make your first ocean dive the first time you've been under scary water, the first time you've been in current, the first time you've been in waves, stressed while also being task loaded with 70-80lb's of awkward gear or... make it a natural extension of what you are already used to. For someone to consider themselves progressive and miss that is pretty weird.

But, if you don't personally like skindiving, or can't make money off people spending time doing it, I can see why one would minimize it's importance.

Snorkels are not part of scuba diving by definition because they don't work underwater where scuba diving takes place.

Your suggestion to 'clip the snorkel off' or "put the snorkel in a pocket" says to me the person talking about things they have not done is not me. Clip off a snorkel? Put a snorkel in a pocket? How exactly does that work again? How does it end up back on the mask again? What pocket is big enough to handle a snorkel that is stiff enough to use in current and waves? What snorkel keeper allows a snorkel to be attached to a mask on the head, and still doe not rip a women's hair out when the mask comes off? (I use just such a snorkel keeper when I leave my gear on the float/platform/boat and don't want to remove my mask because I am still in the water, but its not secure enough to keep the snorkel attached when it is not in the mouth.

I am a passionate and active freediver. I am a passionate and active scuba diver. These activities are related by the mask and fins and separated by the snorkel.

Training has gotten significantly more efficient and effective than it used to be in the days when everyone built their own regulators.

Anyone can teach themselves to dive all by themselves, no instructor needed. It's just massively, massively inefficient to do so and puts diving out of the reach of anyone not living on the ocean with a ton of free time. We get paid for efficiently using our students' time, and make our living by efficiently using our time to do so. You will never hear me brag about a 6-8 week class because that is just disrepectting the hell out of my students and myself.

Ya get what ya pay for, and if an instructor thinks his time is worth less than minimum wage, then he is probably right.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 11:30 AM ----------

A swivel rotates, the fixed 90º adapter is fixed and, thus, more robust.

Swivel
View attachment 205333

Fixed
View attachment 205334

The first is a hemispherical 360 degree swivel, aka death star exploding hemisphere swivel.

The second is the 90 degree swivel,

They both rotate. A given angle labeled swivel just keeps one angle while swiveling.
Both Piranha
Swivel Adapters
and DGE
https://www.divegearexpress.com/regulators/adapters/swivels.shtml

call the 90 thing a swivel (they also the 70/120 a swivel too, which I tend to prefer to the 90 one, personally.)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Anyone can teach themselves to dive all by themselves, no instructor needed. It's just massively, massively inefficient to do so and puts diving out of the reach of anyone not living on the ocean with a ton of free time. We get paid for efficiently using our students' time, and make our living by efficiently using our time to do so. You will never hear me brag about a 6-8 week class because that is just disrepectting the hell out of my students and myself.

Turning out OW graduates who haven't done much more than mimic an instructor once while kneeling on the bottom is disrespecting the hell out of your students ... it's the rare student who will come out of a typical 4-day OW class capable of planning and executing a dive without assistance. In the environment I dive in, that's not acceptable, as nobody does guided dives here and OW grads are expected to be capable of planning and executing dives in sometimes difficult conditions with some degree of self-reliance. Such training takes more time and effort ... and has to factor in what's going on inside the students' head as well as how well they're responding to the knowledge and skills parts of the class.

You're right that you generally get what you pay for ... some people would rather pay a premium for higher-quality training. And some instructors would rather address the needs of those few than churn out a bunch of half-trained "divers" who are a danger to themselves, the reefs they dive on, and pretty much everyone around them in the water.

To each their own ... that's why we have different agencies and different training styles. Which is more "efficient" is more often a function of the student's ability to learn than it is the instructor's ability to teach ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 08:35 AM ----------

I'm not sure what the difference is.

All adaptors swivel, like al the second stage joints, and thus are labeled that way. The 90 swivel I think you are referring to is actually called a 360 hemisphere adaptor.

... all adapters do not swivel ... that's why she referred to the ones she used as "fixed" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[chrisch]

..... it's the rare student who will come out of a typical 4-day OW class capable of planning and executing a dive without assistance. In the environment I dive in, that's not acceptable, as nobody does guided dives here and OW grads are expected to be capable of planning and executing dives in sometimes difficult conditions with some degree of self-reliance. ...

I think one of the "weaknesses" of the PADI system is the failure to impress upon people that the OW class is just the basics. This is compounded by the use of the term "advanced" in the AOW class. To me you are not really up to speed until the Rescue Diver level. RD should be the goal and the the OW and AOW are steps to that point. In the conditions you describe then I would hope people are getting to the RD level, either by formal training or by accumulated experience in better conditions.

...... that's why we have different agencies and different training styles.....

Yes. The BSAC is geared to UK diving conditions. It includes dSMB use, for example, which is absent altogether from PADI.


Globally though there are a whole mess of folk with a PADI OW in their wallet, happy to do the odd reef dive with a guide on holiday once a year. The conscientious will do a Scuba Review the less so figure the dive operator's check dive serves much the same purpose. The industry runs on this customer base. Something perhaps a lot of us forget when getting excited about our own agenda on forums for enthusiasts

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think one of the "weaknesses" of the PADI system is the failure to impress upon people that the OW class is just the basics. This is compounded by the use of the term "advanced" in the AOW class. To me you are not really up to speed until the Rescue Diver level. RD should be the goal and the the OW and AOW are steps to that point. In the conditions you describe then I would hope people are getting to the RD level, either by formal training or by accumulated experience in better conditions.

Rescue Diver is the only class I ever recommend universally to my students. With NAUI, you can take the class at any time after OW ... there are no other prerequisites. I do not offer AOW straight out of OW class ... I encourage my students to go out and get some dives first ... to get comfortable with the skills they learned in OW. But my AOW class is a bit more rigorous than the "traditional" offering ... it's geared specifically toward doing more advanced dives in our local conditions.

Yes. The BSAC is geared to UK diving conditions. It includes dSMB use, for example, which is absent altogether from PADI.

I teach dSMB deployment in AOW.

Globally though there are a whole mess of folk with a PADI OW in their wallet, happy to do the odd reef dive with a guide on holiday once a year. The conscientious will do a Scuba Review the less so figure the dive operator's check dive serves much the same purpose. The industry runs on this customer base. Something perhaps a lot of us forget when getting excited about our own agenda on forums for enthusiasts

For someone doing basic guided dives in tropical conditions, the basic OW is usually adequate. The important thing is for people to understand where their limits are, and choose their dives within those limits ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sylverbard01]

Smb deployment is part of open water. Long hoses are not. Simple. If you are taking a professional class...wear the gear the standards book says to wear. Everyone diving a bp wing long hose rig certainly should be masters of trim and bouyancy already and going for a few dives a stab jacket and snorkle should be easy. Once you have your DM cert and beyond wear the approved rig while teaching basic classes and your advanced rig for other classes. I love instructors in doubles on aow and photo and ice and wreck and drift and boat...classes. Safe. Lots of gas. Let's students see whats out there beyond neon split fins and noise makers and full metal dive computers. But a long hose and snorkel? No. Paid standards say I have to have one with me in the water. And two auible signal devices. Two visual signal devices. So I have them. In pockets.

 

[Storker]

For someone doing basic guided dives in tropical conditions, the basic OW is usually adequate. The important thing is for people to understand where their limits are, and choose their dives within those limits ...

Also, some divers regard the PADI OW/AOW cert as what it really is: a license to get airfills and start the real learning process.

Quite a few of my clubmates are PADI certified, simply because PADI is the world's largest agency and PADI shops use rather aggressive pricing and marketing. Then they join a club (just like my BSAC and CMAS certed clubmates) and start their real learning process. I wouldn't be able to tell which of my clubmates have PADI, CMAS or BSAC certs from their skills; the diver themself is a more significant variable for skills than the agency is. I have both CMAS and PADI certed clubmates I'd rather not buddy with, and I have both CMAS and PADI certed clubmates I'd love to buddy up with.


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