Deep Stops Increases DCS

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Since when do models represent physiology so perfectly? Never.
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Exactly, they never do. That's why calibration and validation by controlled experiments is so important.

This particular imperfection of using the same bubble model parameters for all compartments is interesting because it is the reason why VPM protects fast compartments at the expense of the slow ones, and thereby creates deep stops. Deep stops are not an inherent property of bubble models; they are caused by the particular parametrization of the bubble model.

Tissues are different regarding bubbling. Bubble growth is different in cartilage, spinal chord, or blood. The impact of bubbles on DCS symptoms is different, too: blood can endure more and larger bubbles than the spinal chord, although their halftime is not so different. All of these effects determine the allowed supersaturations of tissues, and determine which tissue should be protected to avoid DCS. A bubble model using the same surface tension and same critical radius for all compartments does not consider these differences. Whereas a Buehlmann ZHL model implicitly does consider these effects because its M-Values were determined experimentally.

This may seem paradoxical at a first glance: Although Buehlmann ZHL is mathematically much simpler than VPM and does not explicitly calculate bubble growth, it can consider the effects of bubbling on DCS more accurately because these effects were present during the experiments in which the ZHL M-Values were determined.
 
Interesting to discuss all these graphs back and forward. But isn't the proof in the pudding? After all, what is the most important is not to get bends, and certainly not the neurological type. So the incidence of bends in the two methods should tell us what the best method is. And we all know which one it is :)

Yes... and no. So how to look at this?

Theory:

We know the nedu did not test tech dive deep stops. Despite all the wishful thinking of many, and all the attempts to connect the nedu to tech diving stops... the connection is not there.


Real DCS reports. What has the trend been in the last 15 years?

We can look at DAN yearly reports, although those have been scaled back lately to obscure that info. There is the BSAC annual reports and they have a tech report section. There are actual retrospective multi-year studies published on tech diving, in journals. And anecdotal - ask you charter boat captain, instructor, or park manager, etc, how often trouble strikes.


I'm not going to go through to repeat all that here, but the summary is, DCS treatment for tech has been holding steady and no adverse affect of deep stops can be seen anywhere in the treatment numbers.


************


So take your pick - the theory of imaginary connections from nedu shallow tests, or the reality of 15 + years of treatment numbers.

I like real pudding - real numbers.

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Exactly, they never do. That's why calibration and validation by controlled experiments is so important.

This particular imperfection of using the same bubble model parameters for all compartments is interesting because it is the reason why VPM protects fast compartments at the expense of the slow ones, and thereby creates deep stops. Deep stops are not an inherent property of bubble models; they are caused by the particular parametrization of the bubble model.

Tissues are different regarding bubbling. Bubble growth is different in cartilage, spinal chord, or blood. The impact of bubbles on DCS symptoms is different, too: blood can endure more and larger bubbles than the spinal chord, although their halftime is not so different. All of these effects determine the allowed supersaturations of tissues, and determine which tissue should be protected to avoid DCS. A bubble model using the same surface tension and same critical radius for all compartments does not consider these differences. Whereas a Buehlmann ZHL model implicitly does consider these effects because its M-Values were determined experimentally.

This may seem paradoxical at a first glance: Although Buehlmann ZHL is mathematically much simpler than VPM and does not explicitly calculate bubble growth, it can consider the effects of bubbling on DCS more accurately because these effects were present during the experiments in which the ZHL M-Values were determined.


I think you have missed a component in the VPM there. There are tissue gas tension tracking, across an array of slowing half times - just like Buehlmann ZHL. That in itself generates the slowing of stops towards the end, and nullifies this argument that slow and fast tissue are somehow imbalanced. In the model, the Initial Critial radii you speak of above, are made into an Initial Ascent Gradients, that later becomes an Allowable Gradients (32). i.e. A slower off gas rate tissue, will retain more gas, will have a higher gradient for longer, and bubble model formula will see this and reduce the allowable gradient to keep growth within set limits. All this is part of the model implementation, and usually not discussed in the model descriptions.


What I think you should be saying, is that VPM is currently calibrated to keep the same sized micro bubble growth across the whole ascent (32 cell samples). But it also has the ability to change that to a larger Initial Critial Radii(ICR) in the early ascent (less deep stops), and smaller ICR later in the ascent (longer shallow sections). This change has not been explored yet. Maybe its time, and perhaps a VPM-D could satisfy the new trend towards the extended mid level deco.


That is a strong position to say that that bubble growth is different in different tissue types, and I suspect that it may be true also. Do you have comparative references though? I think also that most tissues are dynamic for half time, each tissue type containing a range of times. I think its very unlikely we can divided our body so neatly into 16 well timed parts. Take a look at this study about how tissue times can be influenced: Inert gas clearance from tissue by co-currently and counter-currently arranged microvessels. - PubMed - NCBI


On the ZHL calibrations, yes of course tissue microbubble growth was present during testing, and is "baked in" to the resulting limits. But ZHL cannot create a different plan with different bubble growth conditions, by extrapolation. Bubble growth conditions and limits do not parallel the ZHL A/B limits. This is why the models diverge as the plans get bigger. ZHL is extending its lines based on its calibrated man tested data points, but like all extrapolation, that gets out of proportion after a while.

In contrast, VPM is creating new limits on each dive based on physical growth properties of micro-bubbles, all within the bounds of current tissue pressure levels.

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What I think you should be saying, is that VPM is currently calibrated to keep the same sized micro bubble growth across the whole ascent (32 cell samples). But it also has the ability to change that to a larger Initial Critial Radii(ICR) in the early ascent (less deep stops), and smaller ICR later in the ascent (longer shallow sections). This change has not been explored yet. Maybe its time, and perhaps a VPM-D could satisfy the new trend towards the extended mid level deco.
Pretty good schtick from the VPM marketer (and the only person with a financial interest in this discussion). But I agree that it's probably time to add another arbitrary fudge to try and morph VPM into something that might somewhat resemble the current state of decompression research.

Or more simply, divers could just use GF as an easier way to reflect the findings of the NEDU study. As has been discussed by many (not just the guy hawking VPM software), moving to GF (e.g. GF40/70, GF 60/75, etc.) is a reasonable way to begin to adjust your diving in light of the findings of the manned trials of the United States Navy Experimental Diving Unit.
 
What I think you should be saying, is that VPM is currently calibrated to keep the same sized micro bubble growth across the whole ascent (32 cell samples). But it also has the ability to change that to a larger Initial Critial Radii(ICR) in the early ascent (less deep stops), and smaller ICR later in the ascent (longer shallow sections). This change has not been explored yet. Maybe its time, and perhaps a VPM-D could satisfy the new trend towards the extended mid level deco.

I think so too. Changing the Initial Critical Radii during the ascent then needs a set of [ICR_low, ICR_high]. Its effect will give a degree of freedom similar to Gradient Factors [GF_low, GF_high] in ZHL. I expect that the resulting decompression curves of "VPM-D" with appropriately chosen [ICR_low, ICR_high] will match ZHL with corresponding [GF_low, GF_high] very well.


On the ZHL calibrations, yes of course tissue microbubble growth was present during testing, and is "baked in" to the resulting limits. But ZHL cannot create a different plan with different bubble growth conditions, by extrapolation. Bubble growth conditions and limits do not parallel the ZHL A/B limits. This is why the models diverge as the plans get bigger. ZHL is extending its lines based on its calibrated man tested data points, but like all extrapolation, that gets out of proportion after a while.

Extrapolating, i.e. evaluating a model far beyond the range of data points that is was calibrated on, is usually a bad idea, agreed.
The interesting question is hence: what range of dive depth and duration data were available to Buehlmann when he created his models and tables? You will be surprised what these guys did in the 1960s, when Buehlmann worked on commercial diving for Shell. Chamber dive experiments down to 575m (1890ft), water dives to 305m (1000ft), altitude dives at Mt Kenya (15600ft), 60min bottom time at 90m (300ft). Current technical diving is very well within the range of the experimental data that Buehlmann had to develop ZHL. See http://archive.rubicon-foundation.o...e/123456789/6003/SPUMS_V29N2_7.pdf?sequence=1
 
@UWSojourner

Could you share some thoughts on how the NEDU study results should be treated by recreational divers?

Take 30 meters for 20 minutes at 21%. The RDP considers this profile as a no deco dive and within the RDP NDL for recreational diving (with safety stop required). However, using ZHL16 with 40/70 GF, the following are the required deco obligations for the same profile:

9 meter @ 1 min
6 meter @ 3 min
3 meter @ 6 min

So, ZHL16 with 40/70 is more conservative than the RDP. Is it more prudent for recreational divers to follow the stops above as compared to following the RDP which listed this profile as a NDL dive?
 
Not UWSojourner but generally speaking:

It is always more prudent to allow your body to decompress. How much time you spend doing that is weighed against several factors, the risk of DCI, thermal considerations, gas availability, etc. Every dive is a decompression dive, "NDL" tables just weigh the risk of a hit against the amount of decompression you do on your direct ascent, or coupled with a safety stop.

Mark Powell quotes a good study in Deco for Divers that illustrates this point quite well, showing a doppler study of divers who performed several variations of a safety stop. Those who performed somewhat of a "min deco" profile had the least amount of bubbles, whereas those who made a direct ascent had the most. The safety stop only group was naturally between the two to some extent.

@UWSojourner

Could you share some thoughts on how the NEDU study results should be treated by recreational divers?

Take 30 meters for 20 minutes at 21%. The RDP considers this profile as a no deco dive and within the RDP NDL for recreational diving (with safety stop required). However, using ZHL16 with 40/70 GF, the following are the required deco obligations for the same profile:

9 meter @ 1 min
6 meter @ 3 min
3 meter @ 6 min

So, ZHL16 with 40/70 is more conservative than the RDP. Is it more prudent for recreational divers to follow the stops above as compared to following the RDP which listed this profile as a NDL dive?
 
I think so too. Changing the Initial Critical Radii during the ascent then needs a set of [ICR_low, ICR_high]. Its effect will give a degree of freedom similar to Gradient Factors [GF_low, GF_high] in ZHL. I expect that the resulting decompression curves of "VPM-D" with appropriately chosen [ICR_low, ICR_high] will match ZHL with corresponding [GF_low, GF_high] very well.

Yeah... maybe... Its more an idea at present. It would be integral to the core calculations, so none of the GF issues would exist. I know that will be OK, as that is how I made my test ZHL-D design.

*********

The GF idea was nice, when it was used cautiously, in small amounts. That kept a good connection back to the base model. But now.... look what a mess its become. Example, the post above this one.

When they started adding 30% to the end via x/70 settings, its too much. The values in deco models are often computed in log and exponential form. So adding 60, 50, 40, 30% sequentially to each level, on a compounding result, that is itself an exponential value.... boom. The end result is some grossly over exaggerated junk profile.

GF has been used beyond it range now. But look at what people want now? Every year the system creeps a bit longer and longer than last year. It never seems to stop, and its an impossibility to get it turned around. We don't need "deco" models so much now, because we don't follow a decompression profile anymore. Instead many want to follow the inflated junk profiles.

Not everyone does this of course, there are still those who stick with real plans from real models, in modest amounts. And there are always the adventurous type who like it fast too.

.
 
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real plans from real models
Any model needs real data for validation, that's modeling 101. As far as I know, the Bühlman models are based on and have have been validated by experimental data. However, I can't remember reading about the experimental data behind the bubble models, so I'd really like to hear about that.
 
@UWSojourner

Could you share some thoughts on how the NEDU study results should be treated by recreational divers?

Take 30 meters for 20 minutes at 21%. The RDP considers this profile as a no deco dive and within the RDP NDL for recreational diving (with safety stop required). However, using ZHL16 with 40/70 GF, the following are the required deco obligations for the same profile:

9 meter @ 1 min
6 meter @ 3 min
3 meter @ 6 min

So, ZHL16 with 40/70 is more conservative than the RDP. Is it more prudent for recreational divers to follow the stops above as compared to following the RDP which listed this profile as a NDL dive?

This is a very interesting point, one that I have been interested in for several years. I have been diving DSAT for 14 years, 1150 dives. These are essentially the PADI RDP values. About 95% of my dives are no deco, the rest are light deco, average about 5 minutes. To get relatively equivalent bottom times requires Buhlmann GFs of 95-100. VPM-B with nominal conservativism yields decompression stops at DSAT NDLs. I use Ross' MultiDeco to do my calculations.

At some point, I need to replace my Oceanic VT3 primary computer, I can't easily figure out how to do this from among the currently available dive computers. The recreational diver's needs are likely very different than the technical diver's needs
 
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