When does diving become "ridiculous"?

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From my perspective as a retired professional pilot, diving is really no different than other hazardous occupations and hobbies. Those of us that have spent a lifetime participating in hazardous activities know that very few people that are very good in their high risk profession/hobby are "adrenaline junkies". Most frequent and skilled participants in high risk activities are typically people that love what they do, take as many precautions as reasonably possible, have a very good understanding of their capabilities and equipment, and try to operate in the fat part of the operating envelope as much as possible. Sometimes we have to press the envelope to fully understand the real limits of the envelope, but it is generally not done without thought and belief that we are capable of recovering from unknown problems that might pop up. Most of the time we are correct in our assessment of our capabilities verses the environment, but sometimes we are wrong and or unlucky--then we get hurt or die. That is the price we all pay for getting out of bed in the morning. We can always mitigate that risk by not participating in the (fill in the blank) activity, but then we would have missed out on all of the things that made us love the profession or hobby. For me, that is not an acceptable way to live.
 
A few of the mainstream news articles analogized EN to Mt. Everest, but I have a hard time with that--even apart from the question of relative difficulty. The view from Everest is surely like nothing else on the planet. And there is a summit--a distinct goal--not just some route along so many thousand feet of passage until you have to turn around. From the videos I have seen, EN is far from the prettiest cave in the world. I could understand the allure of EN if it really was as spectacular as Everest. So on the one hand that leaves me wondering how a cave of this level of difficulty can be worth the effort. On the other hand, I understand that some cave divers are attracted to the sheer challenge--they enjoy all the planning, logistics, and execution, apart from what there is to see in the cave. From what I have read, EN offers both a challenge and interesting sights.

If I ever do get cave certified, I'm going to focus on getting the most cave beauty for the least amount of difficulty.

I am just an open water diver, occasional wreck diver.

I enjoy the weightless freedom of the ocean.

Solo dive most of the time, unless my sons are home.

I am not looking for any "challenge".

Looking for peace, tranquility. nature at its best.

We do learn from every incident. It can improve our everyday diving,
 
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A few of the mainstream news articles analogized EN to Mt. Everest, but I have a hard time with that--even apart from the question of relative difficulty. The view from Everest is surely like nothing else on the planet. And there is a summit--a distinct goal--not just some route along so many thousand feet of passage until you have to turn around. From the videos I have seen, EN is far from the prettiest cave in the world.
I think the idea of Eagle's Nest being the Everest of cave dives is a good indication of the spectrum of diving, because there is a spectrum within Eagle's Nest itself.

At the low end of the spectrum are the few dives I have done at Eagle's Nest--open circuit dives on a single set of doubles with no stages. These dives combine two different technical skill sets--cave diving and trimix decompression diving. In this case, you enter the cave and soon find yourself at depth that demands trimix and decompression. As far as cave diving goes, it is pretty darn easy. You get to leave your decompression bottles behind, so you are unhindered by them as you swim. The line is clear, and the cave is spacious. You go in for a ways until your gas reaches the turn point, which does not take long at 270 feet, and you turn around and go back. Just about no possibility of getting lost, stuck,silted out, etc. Then you start doing your decompression stops going straight up a permanent ascent line. The hardest part is the time when you are in the chimney, depending upon the size of your team, because there is not a lot of room there. Your final stop, the longest, is next to a big log, holding on to it if you wish. Compare this to open ocean diving, where you had to carry your bottles throughout the dive and you have to hold all your deco stops in mid water, with the last stop just beneath the waves. This "Mount Everest" cave dive is comparatively easy in both the cave diving and the decompression aspects. I would go into another dive like that there without a glimmer of a worry.

At the other end of the spectrum is the kind of thing these guys were doing when they died. Multiple tanks that needed to be staged on a setup dive the day before. Restrictions so tight you may have to take your gear off to get through. Backup scooter needed in case of a scooter failure. Hours of decompression planned. Sorry, that is off the chart for me. I wouldn't think of doing a dive like that. As far as I am concerned, that is going beyond the Mount Everest comparison--there are blind people climbing Mount Everest these days.
 
Really? Agree to disagree.

very much really in my mind. While there is a rigid overhead, it isn't threatening to crumble on top of you and the water conditions are infinitely better with no surge/current and is a lot warmer. On the Doria you can make a direct ascent to the surface assuming you aren't penetrating the wreck, and it is a bit shallower, but that is the only thing it has going for it...
 
"Because it's there" - George Mallory

Exactly. But Edmund Hillary learned from Mallory & made it.

But that was hard-core exploration. This particular dive may have been dabbling at "exploration", but mostly it was just doing the tourist thing, but at an 11 in the scale of 1 - 10. And what will we learn from this double fatality? Don't dump your life-support equipment when you are umpteen hundred feet back in a cave and 260' down? Pardon my bluntness, but I kinda knew that already, and I don't cave dive, or do 300 footers. It sorta seems like "Life 101" stuff.

As I said, I didn't know either of these guys personally, so I don't know what their domestic situation was. I can't help but wonder if these people who die pursuing these hobbies would think that it was worth it if we could ask them now. And what if one of the people searching for them was injured or killed. Would they find that acceptable? Would they argue that the recovery team "understood" so it was ok that one of them died?

Perhaps I am putting too much value on my ass, but I think Mrs. Stoo would be devastated if I kicked it doing something like this. She'd have by body exhumed just so she could kick my ass. Stuff happens sometimes... car accidents and so on... and these are to a large extent out of our control, but to knowingly risk your life just seems selfish if you have a family, when there is no particular benefit to yourself or "mankind"...
 
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To them, this apparently wasn't considered that intense a dive. It just went horrifically bad, and they couldn't catch a break trying to get out. Are there things that would have helped, either in setup or during the event? Sure, but I'll let people who dive these kind of dives discuss them.
 
To them, this apparently wasn't considered that intense a dive.

That might have been part of the problem too. This is not to say that they were complacent, but perhaps they didn't give the dive the respect it deserved, or they were more confident in their skill set than was justified.

As many have said, reading the accounting of this dive makes my skin crawl.
 
But that was hard-core exploration. This particular dive may have been dabbling at "exploration", but mostly it was just doing the tourist thing, but at an 11 in the scale of 1 - 10. And what will we learn from this double fatality? Don't dump your life-support equipment when you are umpteen hundred feet back in a cave and 260' down? Pardon my bluntness, but I kinda knew that already, and I don't cave dive, or do 300 footers. It sorta seems like "Life 101" stuff.

Too much Stoo. It's certainly OK to ask why, but let's be very careful about doing the "coulda, shoulda" analysis, especially from those who haven't done those kinds of dives. I am very distraught over this accident, but I also value everyone who pushes the envelope. Whether it's a scientist who puts their reputation out there to push the boundaries of our knowledge or a diver who physically pushes what is possible, I take my hat off to them. It is all of this that makes the human experience truly special.
 

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