When does diving become "ridiculous"?

[KevinNM]

What is the benefit of a hike in the mountains? People get caught in sudden changes of the weather and die. I'm sure we could show you pictures of mountains on a screen while you walk a treadmill, which would get you all the benefits and none of the risks, right?

People have very different ideas about what they find an engrossing hobby. And as long as it doesn't involve preying on other people they are all good.

 

[Stoo]

Since you don't do these types of dives, I think it's tough for you to relate to them. You can suggest that cave divers of this level as some sort of adrenaline junkie base jumpers with zero margin for error, but you're so far detached from what really goes on during these dives. Frankly, I find it rude to characterize me and my friends as some sort of reckless hooligans who disregard their families and further disregard the recovery divers that respond to an incident (who are also me and my friends). You think I haven't had some serious conversations with my girlfriend (8yrs) about this stuff? You're dead ass wrong if you think I haven't. I know the deal, and so does she. And fwiw, I've now had to console 3 wives of deceased cave divers. The only reason it wasn't a 4th is because she wasn't around.

Your super simple life 101 ideas become not so simple when faced with what seems like the only option to survive.

I am not suggesting that "you guys" are adrenaline junkies at all. I asked the question but in no way am I suggesting that I believe it to be the case. The serious cave divers I know are indeed the furthest thing from it. They are thoughtful, introspective people. (Having said that, I think some of the touristy types are a little). Please don't take my questions as criticism of your chosen type of diving. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. I am simply trying to understand why, knowing the risks and so on, people choose to undertake these dives.

As for you having to console three wives, well I suppose that kind of underscores what I mean. I don't understand the point of tackling dives such as this when consoling widows is going to almost certainly be an outcome sooner or later. I prefer to end my dives having a cold beer on a boat. And I assume that the vast, vast majority of your dives end with a cold beer in a parking lot. So you see, we aren't that different!

But again, my question is not meant in any way to be a criticism. I find "your" dives to be amazing in their complexity... doesn't mean I understand the "why" however, and you haven't really explained it either in your comments. Perhaps you don't understand why you do them either. That wouldn't be all that surprising since I also don't really understand why I do the dives I do. The money, the time spent... there's not much difference really, only in the degree of risk.

 

[Stoo]

People have very different ideas about what they find an engrossing hobby. And as long as it doesn't involve preying on other people they are all good.

Ya but, but, but... This sort of diving doesn't "prey" on others, but a bad outcome has many victims. The deceased have it easy in that regard. Their families and friends are faced with years of mourning, sadness and possibly financial hardship. A death that comes about as the result of some "extreme", but ultimately pointless dive, effects many people.

 

[hroark2112]

I'm not an old school diver like some of you guys, but having done some homework, you are right that times are changing.

If someone has the money they can walk into a shop as green as the grass and buy a rebreather and begin training that weekend from OW to Full Cave. That is kind of scary when you think about the capabilities of that machine.

Sure, you can buy a rebreather. Can you find someone to train & certify you on it? That is a totally different story. If you walked into the shop in Raleigh green as the grass and bought a shiny new Kiss rebreather, you'd better have an instructor in mind because I'm not going to be the one to lead you to your grave. Most manufacturers won't send the whole rebreather to a diver unless he's already certified on the unit. The DSV or BOV goes to your instructor. Yes, you can buy a used unit, but you'll have to find an instructor still. Also you'll need, at minimum, TDI nitrox or Advanced Nitrox (or another agency equivalent) just to get into the course.

Are there those out there who own rebreathers and have no certification? Sure. Are there those out there who have no certification and actually dive a rebreather? Yes, that too. But to say you can go from green to certified on a rebreather? Not quite that simple.

After you negotiate your path to certification on a rebreather, you've got to find a cave instructor willing to take on a green diver and take him into a cave. Not likely to happen! The little bit of $$ the instructor would make on the course isn't near the legal fees it would take to defend himself when that student is pushing up daisies.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

After you negotiate your path to certification on a rebreather, you've got to find a cave instructor willing to take on a green diver and take him into a cave. Not likely to happen! The little bit of $$ the instructor would make on the course isn't near the legal fees it would take to defend himself when that student is pushing up daisies.

You don't think you could go to Mexico or somewhere and get Cave certified if you had the $$?

 

[PfcAJ]

I am not suggesting that "you guys" are adrenaline junkies at all. I asked the question but in no way am I suggesting that I believe it to be the case. The serious cave divers I know are indeed the furthest thing from it. They are thoughtful, introspective people. (Having said that, I think some of the touristy types are a little). Please don't take my questions as criticism of your chosen type of diving. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. I am simply trying to understand why, knowing the risks and so on, people choose to undertake these dives.

As for you having to console three wives, well I suppose that kind of underscores what I mean. I don't understand the point of tackling dives such as this when consoling widows is going to almost certainly be an outcome sooner or later. I prefer to end my dives having a cold beer on a boat. And I assume that the vast, vast majority of your dives end with a cold beer in a parking lot. So you see, we aren't that different!

But again, my question is not meant in any way to be a criticism. I find "your" dives to be amazing in their complexity... doesn't mean I understand the "why" however, and you haven't really explained it either in your comments. Perhaps you don't understand why you do them either. That wouldn't be all that surprising since I also don't really understand why I do the dives I do. The money, the time spent... there's not much difference really, only in the degree of risk.

I told you exactly why I do it. Its one of the last things in the world you can genuinely explore.

 

[CuzzA]

Sure, you can buy a rebreather. Can you find someone to train & certify you on it? That is a totally different story. If you walked into the shop in Raleigh green as the grass and bought a shiny new Kiss rebreather, you'd better have an instructor in mind because I'm not going to be the one to lead you to your grave. Most manufacturers won't send the whole rebreather to a diver unless he's already certified on the unit. The DSV or BOV goes to your instructor. Yes, you can buy a used unit, but you'll have to find an instructor still. Also you'll need, at minimum, TDI nitrox or Advanced Nitrox (or another agency equivalent) just to get into the course.

Are there those out there who own rebreathers and have no certification? Sure. Are there those out there who have no certification and actually dive a rebreather? Yes, that too. But to say you can go from green to certified on a rebreather? Not quite that simple.

After you negotiate your path to certification on a rebreather, you've got to find a cave instructor willing to take on a green diver and take him into a cave. Not likely to happen! The little bit of $$ the instructor would make on the course isn't near the legal fees it would take to defend himself when that student is pushing up daisies.

Yes, I understand all of that. You're not buying a breather and walking out of the shop. My point was that a person can have zero diving experience and from day one begin his/her dive career on a rebreather, which has the ability to put a person in serious deco, and continue on through the certs without gaining years of experience.

I'll concede that it is very uncommon, but I've heard of some divers starting out on CC or semi CC. Really, I was trying to draw the comparison to old school divers. I recall this statement from an old school diver... "Tank options back in the day where like the color option on a Ford Model T, you can have whatever color you want as long as it's black. For diving you could have whatever tank you want as long as it's a steel 72."

 

[boulderjohn]

You don't think you could go to Mexico or somewhere and get Cave certified if you had the $$?

The cave instructors I know in Mexico are at least as serious and exacting as the ones in the USA.

 

[Stoo]

I told you exactly why I do it. Its one of the last things in the world you can genuinely explore.

I just reread your post and you don't actually say that anywhere that I can see, but you said it here, so that's all that matters. A long as you and others are happy with accepting the risks involved then that's reason enough. I wouldn't do it, but as you righteously pointed out, with my "super simple life" I likely won't ever get it!

 

[doctormike]

I think that Stoo is raising a reasonable question, and it's important not to confuse a question about this particular dive with a critique of cave diving in general.

Yes, I understand the allure of seeing these amazing spaces (even if I don't want to do it myself). But at some point, as the profile gets pushed further and further and the margin for error gets less and less, we leave the world of reasonable dive plans. Surely, there is SOME point where the plan transitions from "pushing the envelope" to "ridiculous". There is no end to what CAN be attempted, but to shut down the conversation by implying that our very liberty is at stake is just a slippery slope argument.

So far I have learned that the passage from the Room of Dreams into the Revelation Space is 1200 feet into the downstream tunnel, in nearly 300 FFW, past two tight restrictions. Now I am in no way qualified to pass judgement on the plan to dive that on CCR, or on the adequacy of the safety protocols taken by these or any other diver. But I'm also not willing to say that there isn't ANY point where even the most qualified cave divers in the world would say that a dive plan is ridiculous. Another thousand feet past the Revelation Space? Through two more no-mount restrictions? 600 FFW? There is always going to be something more to explore.

Is he wrong to even raise that question? Surely, some dives are ridiculous. Doc Deep's "plan" was universally ridiculed by the technical diving community, and it worked out as anticipated. Just because it's hard to draw a line, doesn't mean that no line can be drawn. And yes, you can die on a 30 foot reef dive, a walk in the woods or in the line at the grocery store. But it's a false equivalence to imply that the same risk calculus is applied to the Revelation Space and a Bonaire shore dive. So if you are going to make that decision on behalf of your kids, it's not unreasonable to ask which side of the line you are on.