20 year shelf life for Aluminum dive cylinders

[Jim Lapenta]

No, we have to put a new o-ring in the unit.

---------- Post added April 9th, 2012 at 11:03 AM ----------

The average person getting a fill has $10,000 - $20,000 in snowmobile gear or they use it for Heli Skiing, which costs 10,000 - $20,000 a week. They do not need charity. They probably give more to charity than our store grosses in a year.

We had one person give us a $10 tip after we spent the time to fill his 2 cu ft. 3000 PSI cylinder.

It is not the amount but the fill pressure and the time it takes that makes it worth the money.

After my 27 year old compressor went down after less than 3000 hours, I had to buy a new compressor. I invested in a Bauer. I have close to $20,000 in it. Instead of a new truck, I put money in a new compressor. My 1995 truck just hit 100,000 miles.

Unfortunately, it will probably be the last compressor that I buy, due to the reality it will probably out live me!

It cost me $26 to fill an 80 cu ft tank. We charge $20 for our clients. If we fill for commercial use, $52.

As far as the 20 year tank rule, we are very hesitant to fill tanks dated before 1990.

Jim, do you consider yourself to be a dive professional or just a diver that works out of his basement doing it for a hobby?

I do consider my self a professional. But not perhaps in the same mold as others. Do I do this for a living? No. In my area there are at least a dozen instructors I have personally met and none of them teach as a primary source of income. This is an economically depressed area and there is just not enough interest in scuba to make a living at it. Even those who own shops have second sources of income of some type.

I choose to base my business model on meeting the needs of my students first and foremost. Each year my numbers have been growing and more and more income from scuba related sources is being added to that from my regular job. All of my own diving and dive related expenses - insurance, dues, travel, training, and gear is now being paid for by teaching and selling equipment. And that's good enough for me. Anything else is gravy. Paying for a shop, compressor, large inventory, etc. has nothing to do with being a professional. That is why I don't feel the need to do that. What I have done is establish relationships with those shops who do not see me as competition but as another source of income. Right now there are 4 that I use and refer other divers and students to depending on their needs and means. I can get air fills, and my students can rent tanks and gear. I don't carry everything a diver needs and neither do any of the shops. But between me and them we can pretty much outfit anyone any way they want as opposed to how the shop wants to see them outfitted.

And as a result I support several LDS's locally and on line. And those that see that also see the repeat business. Those that look at me as competition and give my students the stink eye see nothing. I will advise a student to buy on line before dealing with these shops.

I never wanted to make this my sole source of income. I see too many who have done that and really struggle in the lean times. And as a result a few have failed and even worse some get to where they feel they need to cut corners and take advantage of students by marking up gear to the point that it is damn near obscene. And pushing expensive stuff on divers who do not need it, really don't want it, and worst of all can't afford it.

I became a dive professional to teach people to dive safely and chose a program and agencies that give me the freedom to do that. I don't care about introducing large numbers of people to the activity. Never did. Too many in it now that should be playing tennis or cards. I care about turning out divers that never have to come back to me for more training if they don't want to. And as a result I have found that most of them do come back. Not because they have to but because they want to. While my cert numbers are small I have an average con-ed rate of around 90%. And many of those were not my students for OW. They came from other instructors and from shops that did not offer them a level of training they were satisfied with. I do and as a result instead of going to their original shop for AOW, UW Nav, Rescue, etc they come back to me for those things. And for the non cert workshops I offer that are tailored to each person.

Diving is not for everyone. Divers do not need to spend a fortune to participate in it. And making them do so in any way is, IMO, just the opposite of what a professional is.

 

[Scared Silly]

Good thing I own my compressor. I recently accidentally filled my steel lp 72 (2250psi rated) to 3500psi. It was built in 1960.

Another 250psi and ya could put a hydro mark on it (That is if you were doing a wet fill in a graduated bucket) .

 

[Superlyte27]

Beaverdiver and Superlyte27, just to be perfectly clear on your shop's policy:

Do you provide fills for properly tested and inspected steel tanks that were made before 1990?

Do you provide fills for properly tested and inspected Catalina aluminum tanks that were made before 1990?

We'll fill any steel tank that is properly tested/inspected, regardless of year.
No, we don't fill pre 1990 aluminum tanks. Our store, our policy, our simplistic approach. While I can guarantee that I am eternally vigilant in what gets filled, I can't guarantee that any other employee will be. No one cares about someone else's dive shop, and I won't as naive to think that just because I said so, that proper identification is going to get done. Hell, I still see mistakes made with simply checking the age, let alone manufacturer. It's just simpler to blanket the policy by age, rather than have them try to remember which cylinders were good on which years.

I don't think there's a perfect method, but ours is working. In a business that is losing 10-15 dive shops per year in our area, we're still doing well.

-- If that doesn't work for you, go to another dive shop. We won't lose sleep over it.

 

[redacted]

I do understand a certain distrust of VIS stickers other than your own shop. And I accept that a dive shop may just have higher standards than DOT in rejecting 6351 Aluminum tanks as an unacceptable risk as they do have a failure record. But I don't understand why you can not find a way to accommodate customers who might have perfectly safe pre-1990 aluminum tanks. Perhaps you should only fill such tanks that have your store sticker enabling you to fully manage that specific condition. I hope you are not really concerned about your trained tank inspector's ability to do something so basic as identify when "Catalina" was the tank manufacturer. Perhaps you might even be able to use the more detailed page of data to identify other safe 6051 aluminum tanks but I would understand if that were a task you decided to personally perform rather than making your tank inspector(s) responsible as you would be able to exercise complete control.

We'll fill any steel tank that is properly tested/inspected, regardless of year.
No, we don't fill pre 1990 aluminum tanks. Our store, our policy, our simplistic approach. While I can guarantee that I am eternally vigilant in what gets filled, I can't guarantee that any other employee will be. No one cares about someone else's dive shop, and I won't as naive to think that just because I said so, that proper identification is going to get done. Hell, I still see mistakes made with simply checking the age, let alone manufacturer. It's just simpler to blanket the policy by age, rather than have them try to remember which cylinders were good on which years.

I don't think there's a perfect method, but ours is working. In a business that is losing 10-15 dive shops per year in our area, we're still doing well.

-- If that doesn't work for you, go to another dive shop. We won't lose sleep over it.

 

[halocline]

After 20 years, it makes more sense to replace the tank and valve than to hydro and VIP it.

If you figure out the cost of hydro and VIP against getting a brand new tank and valve, you are better off replacing an old tank.

Since all scuba tanks, old, new, AL, steel, have the same 5 year hydro requirement (about $20 around here at a testing facility)and annual VIS, (about $10) the cost of hydro and vis is exactly same whether you continue using your old tank or get a new one. Your statement, like so many of yours, makes no sense and is merely a disguised sales pitch. There is no-ZERO-truth to the statement that a 20 year old tank, well cared for, is more likely to fail hydro or VIS than a newer one. And the idea that valves should be replaced at 20 years is really dumb. Don't you realize that scuba valves are designed to be easily rebuilt? But, I guess as long as you're conning-oops I mean advising-someone into buying a new tank when they already have one that works fine, you might as well sell 'em a valve, eh?

Pardon me for saying this, because you seem like a genuinely nice person, but your constant mis-information about scuba gear, ALWAYS justifying the purchase of new (and usually high end) gear, is exactly the sort of thing that scubaboard is here to expose. In short, you represent the problem with so many dive shops and the whole concept of having salesmen also provide dive instruction.

 

[beaverdivers]

There is no-ZERO-truth to the statement that a 20 year old tank, well cared for, is more likely to fail hydro or VIS than a newer one. And the idea that valves should be replaced at 20 years is really dumb. Don't you realize that scuba valves are designed to be easily rebuilt?

you might as well sell 'em a valve, eh?

Pardon me for saying this, because you seem like a genuinely nice person, but your constant mis-information about scuba gear, ALWAYS justifying the purchase of new (and usually high end) gear, is exactly the sort of thing that scubaboard is here to expose.

As a tank gets older doesn't the probability of it failing hydro and a VIP increase.

Yes, you are right. Valves can be rebuilt. What is the cost? Even more reason to consider a new tank.

I do not recommend to my clients or students to buy tanks ( except ponies ).

I sell no new tanks, except ponies.

You are wrong again!

 

[redacted]

As a tank gets older doesn't the probability of it failing hydro and a VIP increase.

Yes, you are right. Valves can be rebuilt. What is the cost?

Not necessarily.

Does a light bulb have a greater chance of failing the first time you turn it on or the 100th time you turn it on?

Does a regulator have a greater chance of failing on the last dive before it is serviced or the first dive after it is serviced?

Are you more likely to find a fold in a tank neck the first time you inspect it or at a subsequent inspection?

Valves are fairly cheap to rebuild. I bought valve service kits for about $5 each.

 

[captain]

As a tank gets older doesn't the probability of it failing hydro and a VIP increase.

Yes, you are right. Valves can be rebuilt. What is the cost? Even more reason to consider a new tank.

I do not recommend to my clients or students to buy tanks ( except ponies ).

I sell no new tanks, except ponies.

You are wrong again!

If the tank was properly care for age doesn't mean anything. I have 10 steel 72's. The oldest I bought new in 1957 and the newest was made in the 1978. They all still pass hydro and vis and will probably out live me.

 

[Graeme Tolton]

It still comes down to the fact that he who owns the compressor is free to set his own rules. Lucky for me, other local shops have irradicated nearly all of these 6351 tanks long before i put my fill station together. I wont be investing in an eddy current tester, so turning the tanks away would only be due to not having current ve testing.

All that said, lds are learning the hard way about bs'ing customers. In my area two this year have closed. Customers are becoming more educated on a lot of things than the shop owners are and that is causing the customers to look elsewhere for the gear that they want, not the gear the shop is pushing.

The smart shops are adapting by offering the gear that people are looking for and pricing it competitively.

 

[Scared Silly]

As a tank gets older doesn't the probability of it failing hydro and a VIP increase.

From a mechanical point of view if a cylinder is properly filled to its working pressure its life is basically indefinite. That is because the filling is with the elastic limits. Yeah sure there is a bit of hysteresis but nothing of significance. Now once we throw in a few environmental factors in like hot fills and a few cave fills plus some salt water that life can be reduced if not cared for then yes the probability does increase based on usage but not age. However, I would argue that the increase is not statically significant.

Yes, you are right. Valves can be rebuilt. What is the cost? Even more reason to consider a new tank.

Shouldn't that question be one that the customer answers? It does not sound like you are offering any choice.

If the cost to rebuild is more than the cost of new then sure that would make sense. But I have not yet seen that to the case. It often makes sense if the cost of rebuild approaches the cost of new. But again I have not yet seen that to the case.