About FredT backplates & are they compatible with Halcyon?

[Fetch]

My take on it is that if you get the Pioneer wing as currently sold, you don't need to buy a STA at all.

Apparently, if you do buy one, it can be useful still, for putting more weight where your tank is (like a trim weight).

Actually, from the pics of the Pioneer wing, I'm wondering if it actually comes with cam straps? (If so, thats cool, I just have an extra set of scubapro straps now )

Jeff

 

[FredT]

Originally posted by UncleJT

I have seen comments going around that the Halcyon STA is now integrated into the Pioneer wings. Does this make it harder to swap out with a FredT STA or just more expensive? What are the reasonings for going with a FredT STA instead of the one that comes with the Pioneer wing?

Thanks

- JT

The pioneer "STA" consists of two rods permanently sewn into the wing (unless you own a razor blade.) This system works, sort of, but has difficulty with movement of the wing when changing tanks on a moving boat and does nothing for attaching the wing to the plate whe the tank is not installed. Makes for some interesting juggling in rough seas. My STA will work with or without the pioneer STA installed (on a long pattern plate anyway), and provides a more stable junction of tank and wing.

Several of my customers have removed the Pioneer internal STA and use mine instead for more stability.

Plate data can be had by e-mailing me at the address below, or you can download the "features" document in Worrd 97 format from:

http://diverlink.com/forum/uploads/BackplateF&P_11_15_01.doc

FT

 

[pdomen]

I just bought the 27 lb Pioneer wing from EE a few weeks ago, to go with the FredT backplate and 2-pc STA. In spite of what appears in some photos, EE informed me the wing DOES NOT come with the tank cam bands. They do sell some for about $36 each, however. I ended up buying ScubaPro bands from Fred for somewhat less than that, as I remember.

The Pioneer does have slots to accommodate the bands to hold the tank without the STA. Also it has an internal hard piece (seems to be plastic) that acts like a rib with a groove in it to center the single tank and stabilize it when you tighten the bands. I bought the STA because I had read some folks state this internal rib was not extremely positive in locating and stabilizing the tank. I haven't tried the wing without the STA from Fred, so I can't comment on that, but I can report that the internal rib seems quite narrow to me, so it probably does work as stated, but it's also true the SUBSTANTIAL sst STA brackets from Fred REALLY secure the tank. Also they add more weight which turned out to be useful in my case. Finally, the STA from Fred comes with flat head screws and wing nuts which are installed through the STA brackets, through the grommets in the wing, and through the holes in the backplate. The wingnuts then reside within the deep hollow channel in the plate, keeping them well away from your backbone.

Personally I found this system a breeze to assemble and disassemble, which we had to do to fit two rigs into a very small hardside suitcase for our trip.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Peter

 

[UncleJT]

Thanks Fred, Peter, et al.

I am 99.9% sure I am going with a BP\Wing setup vs. a traditional BC. My only remaining reservation is as follows.

Do I go with a complete Halcyon package or build my own setup using a FredT BP, Pioneer Wing, FredT Harness, FredT STA.

Money is not the issue. The issue is whether a newbie like myself can assemble it all into a complete rig and have it work safely.

Comments, suggestions, encouragement? ;-)

Thanks

- JT

 

[CCDeep]

I'm always surprised that people use wing nuts on their backplates. Seems like an ugly spot for something to come loose. I went with lock nuts, nuts that have a nylon ring built in to grab the thread. You can get them at any marine hardware store. You're going to have use tools to loosen your rig, but that's ok with me.

 

[pdomen]

JT:

If you're reasonably handy with tools like files, sandpaper, and scissors, and can interpret the available photos of the harness setup, I'd say you can make the harness yourself from Fred's kit. You also have to melt the webbing ends with a match or lighter, and heat up a 5/16" metal tube or rod to burn a hole in the web at one point. My 12-year-old son and I did ours together in a couple of evenings (half that time was filing and sanding the edges of the plate and STA). It took time but wasn't difficult. I like smooth edges, so I probably went somewhat overboard (whoops, no pun intended) with the filing and sanding to make all edges feel good to my fingers.

One thing I learned is don't use a wire wheel or brush, as it transfers carbon steel to the stainless, producing mild surface rust stains in seawater. Fred gave me a recipe for acid passivating the pieces that had stained, using common household liquids (vinegar and Coke), which worked great and totally removed the rust, leaving the stainless bright and clean, much to my edification (BTW, thanks for that tip, Fred!).

I found references on this forum for pictures and instructions for the harness, both on a British site and I believe GUE site. In 7 dives (yeah, I know, that's barely a beginning), the straps haven't shifted or slipped in the slots at all. We took Fred's recommendation and used bicycle inner tube sections to both cushion and retain the webbing where it goes through the slots (2 3/8" bicycle inner tube worked perfectly-- a bit smaller would be harder to slide over the webbing, but would probably work). The rubber causes enough friction that adjusting the webbing takes some doing, first feeding it through one side and then taking out the slack on the other side of the slot. So I can't see that the webbing will move unintentionally.

If you can get someone with experience in backplates to check your work and the adjustment, that would be wise before going diving with it.

I have to admit that I get a certain satisfaction in making things myself, and having assembled these rigs gives me some "pride in ownership". Probably if you're more interested in going diving and less interested in an evening at the worktable, you would save time and effort by buying the Halcyon rig already assembled. Now, if, as I've read, their plate is 304, I know that 316 is the preferred alloy for salt water exposure, so Fred's plate would be less likely to corrode over time. However, you need to ask someone with the Halcyon whether they've ever seen any sign of corrosion after salt water use-- my guess would be that as long as it is rinsed after use, the 304 would be fine. So really it comes down to cost vs. the value of your time and the "DIY" satisfaction factor.

Regards,
Peter

 

[FredT]

Originally posted by CCDeep
I'm always surprised that people use wing nuts on their backplates. Seems like an ugly spot for something to come loose. I went with lock nuts, nuts that have a nylon ring built in to grab the thread. You can get them at any marine hardware store. You're going to have use tools to loosen your rig, but that's ok with me.

I don't disagree, and Nylock nuts are less expensive than 316L wing nuts by a bit.

The down side is that Nylocks are not suitable for long term seawater immersion. The "roll over" crimp used to retain the nylon element is VERY susceptible to stress and crevice corrosion in Seawater, and as a rule 316 SST Nylock nuts are not available in less than 1000 quantities. Most marine hardware is "dairy grade" stainless (the two hash marks on the head are a marker of dairy grade) that is basically the same chemistry as 303 SST but with a high copper content for its free machining qualities, They were specificly designed to be suitable for high pressure steam sanitation washdown at minimal cost. That they function reasonably well for marine use above the waterline is lagniappe. They are NOT suitable for subsea use due to the greatly accelerated corrosion rate the added copper creates at the metal grain boundaries and stressed locations.

I have located a group that will sell 316 wing nuts to me in lots of 100 at a "reasonable" price. A true 316L subsea grade stainless steel prevailing torque deformed thread locknut requires a sliver plating to provide lubricant and prevent cold welding during assembly. These get expen$ive, to the tune of about $10 each in lots of 1000!

The best overall choice was still the wing nuts with correct tightening. Nuts MUST be tight and well preloaded or they'll back off in reversing load applications. Even a wing nut requires tooling to tighten and loosen properly, it just takes a simpler tool. Two large flathead screwdrivers (or screwdriver and a knife, or tire iron, or crescent wrench, or water pump pliers, etc.) can be used to snug the STA fasteners enough to prevent loosening.

If you want a prevailing torque "Nylock" style locking function to the wing nut simply add a single drop of Loctite 242 (blue low strength) to the internal thread at assembly about every third time.

FT

 

[Uncle Pug]

... well...
OK, so I'm not sorry

The 27# Halcyon wing with integral STA rods holds my 104 rock solid.

Maybe if you have a bigger jug you might have a problem... but I don't think so.

I used the SS bolts and nuts that are now supplied with the BP storage pocket to secure the wing to the plate so it doesn't flop around when the tank is not in place. These are just like the plastic Zeagle nuts but made of SS...

BTW I do use wing nuts for my doubles but also SS flat & lock washers....
Shane just uses SS flat washers with his wing nuts....
I have also used SS nylocks without any problems....
We dive a lot.

No STA...
No problems...

 

[kinetic]

hi all
i'm currently trying to cut my own plates for the kick of it. could anyone help by PM me the dimensions especially the slots in the plates (particularly the slots for tank straps with the new pioneer wings with "intergrated" STA)? thanks!

 

[CCDeep]

Originally posted by FredT


I don't disagree, and Nylock nuts are less expensive than 316L wing nuts by a bit.

The down side is that Nylocks are not suitable for long term seawater immersion. The "roll over" crimp used to retain the nylon element is VERY susceptible to stress and crevice corrosion in Seawater,

Superb post. I'm not a materials guy, but I work with guys that know this kind of stuff and I really appreciate it.

What it comes down to for me is that on big stuff, like the plate itself, I'm happy to have bought something made out of good stuff. On little stuff, like the nuts (wing or nylock) you gotta put them on right and inspect them, service them, and replace them.