Accident Report...

[Big-t-2538]

I think you did the right thing...and you did one hell of a job doing it JT2.

Amanda...as for "slipping" off platforms. I have seen plenty of OW classes doing checkouts that park about 20 students around a platform. 1 instructor and 2 DMs are the "responsible" individuals for these 20 divers doing check-outs. I would say about half of them are "falling" off or struggling to stay on or near the platform when the instructor or DM isn't watching. They try to do things on their own...their over or underweighted, they have no balance as far as bouyancy is concerned, etc.....I've had the liberty of watching these "classes" during my safety stops when the mucking isn't too bad. IT is really pathetic to see, all these groups do is muck up viz and over-crowd the entry/exit points to the quarry.

Anyway...great job JT2...I only hope that if put in the same situation I can do as good a job as you and your buddy did.

 

[seadog]

situation. You and your buddy are to be praised. Nice to know folks lke you are out there.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Then there is the instructor. I would never have 3 students in the water in 5 ft vis without a DM. In fact I rarely have any students in the water at all without a DM just for that reason. If you have to divert all you attention to a diver in trouble who watches the other students. I have left classes to rescue another instructors students but none of my student have ever been left alone.

Nice job JT2, you done good!

I gotta agree with Mike and others here, this was a serious case of "lack of proper control". I find it hard to believe that the instructor lost control long enough for this to happen. I mean a student isn't on the platform at 20' in one second and gone the next. This took some time to occur, time a Dm or instructor had to proactively fix the problem, not just react to it. Stuff happens underwater you can't always predict. You can not have enough trained supervision in OW training.

 

[jepuskar]

Great job on the rescue portion.....the only problem I have is your mentioning of the facts that this instructor only has 82 dives over 2 years. Seems to me you are implying that he was not qualified for the instructor position based off of this. Obviously, he is not qualified to be an instructor, but lets not forget common sense. That is something that no amount of dives/experience can give you....

I know this issue has been beat down the proverbial path of this board, but have good communication skills, common sense, and a solid understanding of what your teaching is good enough for me to be an OW instructor. The fact that he only had 82 dives under his belt is really irrelevant as he obviously made a poor judgement on land to go into this situation in the first place.

Great job on the rescue.

 

[MASS-Diver]

Hey Amphibious,

I was asking about his medical background because it is ILLEGAL to give somone O2 unless they ask for it...didn't they teach you that in your basic class?

In this case, there was an RN present so it was OK, but, people should know that if you put that O2 mask on someone who has not asked for and it doesn more harm than good (which in can in some cases) you can be held liable.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Even an RN can't force treatment on someone. An O2 provider class teaches you to ask the patient if you can give them O2. If they are unresponsive they won't answer though so I would give it anyway in the case of an unresponsive patient. A little common sense is often called for. Given that O2 administration is the accepted first aid for decompression illness (DCS and lung over expansion injuries) and near drowning, not providing it (if you have it) might get you in trouble also.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

The Instructor in question should thank whatever God he subscribes to that you & your buddy were present that day.

Combativeness in the casualty is often a sign of cerebral neurologic compromise ( brain injury ), but in this case it appears to be limited to full-blown panic.

If First Responders are delayed on-scene remember to Tx for shock...left unattended, it can quickly degrade an otherwise viable casualty to the point where vital functions may be compromised.

Mike, the Red Cross teaches that in the unconcious adult casualty, consent for treatment is implied & therefore perfectly legitimate. The 1st Aider only need treat to the level of their training to be in compliance with accepted practice.

Does anyone think that 1st Aid/C.P.R. & REGULAR dive rescue training is not necessary?

Regards,
D.S.D.

 

[MASS-Diver]

I'm not sure I agree with either point ,Mike. O2 is treated like a perscription drug it is NOT taught in a first aid class. If you want to help someone out while putting yourself at risk legally, that's a noble thing to do, but, the courts don't run on "common sense" and everyone should realize that if you put that mask on someone without them asking for it, you are not protected by good samaratin laws as you would be if you performed basic CPR.

And there are many cases where RNs treat patients that refuse treatment, talk to any ER nurse and ask what them deal with the most, it's going to drunks coming it that want to pull out their IVs and try to hop out of bed.

Also, the consent laws for an unconsious adult DO NOT apply to anything besides first aid (for a non-licenced individual), for example, if you aren't an RN, and EMT, a doctor, etc, and you see someone choking, they refuse the hemliac, so you let them pass out, now you can work the hemliac, but, you sure as heck can't start a trach on this person.


Everyone should know basic first aid, CPR, res diver training etc, it save lives. But, everyone shoudl also know that there are some screw ball laws out there and it you act outside these laws and the individual you are trying to help dies, his family often will be looking for someone to blame and that could be you. In the case of giving somone O2, an attempt to save someone's life could put you and your family at risk for some lawyer looking to cash in. This is a real bummer since 99% of the time O2 is the probably the right thing to do, but, legally, if you're not licensed and your only training is DAN, watch out, your a** is not covered if the victim doesn't ask for it.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Even an RN can't force treatment on someone. An O2 provider class teaches you to ask the patient if you can give them O2. If they are unresponsive they won't answer though so I would give it anyway in the case of an unresponsive patient. A little common sense is often called for. Given that O2 administration is the accepted first aid for decompression illness (DCS and lung over expansion injuries) and near drowning, not providing it (if you have it) might get you in trouble also.

I've done a little research on this in the state of Michigan, most states have similar laws.

Unless it can be proven that your actions were "grossly negligent" or "willful/ wanton misconduct", good samaritans laws protect us in Michigan.

Thats not to say someone couldn't sue you for those actions but they have to prove the above conditions. Maybe lawman or another attorney could shed some light on this topic but that is my understanding.

However, i would not administer O2 if i wasn't properly trained to do so. It could be used against you in any suit, showing you were negligent in not getting the proper training.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
I'm not sure I agree with either point ,Mike. O2 is treated like a perscription drug it is NOT taught in a first aid class. If you want to help someone out while putting yourself at risk legally, that's a noble thing to do, but, the courts don't run on "common sense" and everyone should realize that if you put that mask on someone without them asking for it, you are not protected by good samaratin laws as you would be if you performed basic CPR.

And there are many cases where RNs treat patients that refuse treatment, talk to any ER nurse and ask what them deal with the most, it's going to drunks coming it that want to pull out their IVs and try to hop out of bed.

Also, the consent laws for an unconsious adult DO NOT apply to anything besides first aid (for a non-licenced individual), for example, if you aren't an RN, and EMT, a doctor, etc, and you see someone choking, they refuse the hemliac, so you let them pass out, now you can work the hemliac, but, you sure as heck can't start a trach on this person.


Everyone should know basic first aid, CPR, res diver training etc, it save lives. But, everyone shoudl also know that there are some screw ball laws out there and it you act outside these laws and the individual you are trying to help dies, his family often will be looking for someone to blame and that could be you. In the case of giving somone O2, an attempt to save someone's life could put you and your family at risk for some lawyer looking to cash in. This is a real bummer since 99% of the time O2 is the probably the right thing to do, but, legally, if you're not licensed and your only training is DAN, watch out, your a** is not covered if the victim doesn't ask for it.

I have never seen it tested in court and I'm not a lawyer so I can't argue beyond my training. However, since my training indicates that O2 is the recommended first aid where the above mentioned injuries are suspected the expected duty of care will likely be that I follow my training once I offer assistance. I'm sure it depends on the state but my understanding is that the administration of O2 in an emergency does not require a perscription. Medical O2 is often sold by medical equipment suppliers without a perscription for use in Diving emergencies. Dive rescue courses cover O2 administration and so does the DAN course. I am not giving legal advice and certainly am not qualified to argue matters of law.

On the issue of refusing treatment, you can. I have seen ambulances turn and leave because an injured person refused treatment. You can leave a hospital anytime you wish. There are laws against holding a person against their wishes unless they are under arrest or have been judged incompetant maybe.