Alright, why don't more shops sell BP+Wing setups
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I'll tell you why shops don't carry them. First off, many recreational shops/instructors don't know what they are and if they do they think they are for tech diving in doubles only. If they know what they are they don't understand the advantages. Go into the average shop and ask them to explain balance and trim and how to achieve it and see what you get. Most instructors don't have any real training "in diving" beyond AOW. Why would you expect them to know? A week or so ago I spoke to a college diving club. I asked the certified divers how many had balance and trim explained to them in any part of their training. Two divers out of about thirty said yes. Both studied under the same instructor who is from a tech oriented shop. The difference was an instructor who knew the basics. I would bet that (like me and others) he learned the basics in the peruit of advanced training and skill development.
Then there is the issue of what to sell you next year. You certify someone and put them in a cheap package. Later if they do get more serious and they usually don't you sell them a replacement. If the stick with vacation diving the junk you sold them will work just fine because they will never get good enough to know the difference and you got the sale because it was or at least percieved as inexpensive.
Then there is the presure from the big manufacturers. If a shop want sto carry big names to help bring divers in the door they pay a bunch for a dealership and must meet some pretty lofty anual sales requirements to keep the dealership and get decent prices on the stuff. And thats not all. The manufacturer may require you to carry (therefore sell) their entire line. Now every bp/wing you sell cuts into your chances to make all your other numbers.
If a shop carries several big names they owe their sole to the company store so to speak.
I have had sales reps come into my shop and suggest that if I didn't slack off on the other guys stuff I might lose their stuff. I have had companies refuse to do business with me because of the other lines I carry. It is extorsion. I have had reps suggest that I needed to carry their stuff exclusively (or nearly so). I have had reps sit in my shop and tell me how I should teach to sell more of their stuff. I don't know if it is legal or not but I would rather pay the local family for protection. At least I would get something for it.
You see, once the shop buys the crap they made their money and have no risk. The shop bears 100% of the risk and must agree to do so just to get the dealership.
I have also explained to (indirectly ) why training is in the state it's in. It is less the agency and more the pushing of the manufacturer and the willingness of the shop to go along.
There are manufacturers who have a single (or very few) products I would like to offer. Such an arrangment is not doable. It's an all or none deal.
I haven't named any names but the biggest are the worst.
I guess it sounds like I should get out of the business. Maybe, but I think I'll stick with it a while because my little corner of the worl has some incredible divers in it. We managesd that despite the agencies and especially the manufacturers.
You can't make any money doing thing in this business my way but I never and I mean never have to buy my own beer. Got to love the divers who, after every outing seeing other divers and classes going on, make a trip into the store just to thank you again for helping them to not dive like the others they see.
BP/wings will never be mainstream.
Good trim will never be mainstream.
Good vis where divers are present will never be mainstream.
Then there is the issue of what to sell you next year. You certify someone and put them in a cheap package. Later if they do get more serious and they usually don't you sell them a replacement. If the stick with vacation diving the junk you sold them will work just fine because they will never get good enough to know the difference and you got the sale because it was or at least percieved as inexpensive.
Then there is the presure from the big manufacturers. If a shop want sto carry big names to help bring divers in the door they pay a bunch for a dealership and must meet some pretty lofty anual sales requirements to keep the dealership and get decent prices on the stuff. And thats not all. The manufacturer may require you to carry (therefore sell) their entire line. Now every bp/wing you sell cuts into your chances to make all your other numbers.
If a shop carries several big names they owe their sole to the company store so to speak.
I have had sales reps come into my shop and suggest that if I didn't slack off on the other guys stuff I might lose their stuff. I have had companies refuse to do business with me because of the other lines I carry. It is extorsion. I have had reps suggest that I needed to carry their stuff exclusively (or nearly so). I have had reps sit in my shop and tell me how I should teach to sell more of their stuff. I don't know if it is legal or not but I would rather pay the local family for protection. At least I would get something for it.
You see, once the shop buys the crap they made their money and have no risk. The shop bears 100% of the risk and must agree to do so just to get the dealership.
I have also explained to (indirectly ) why training is in the state it's in. It is less the agency and more the pushing of the manufacturer and the willingness of the shop to go along.
There are manufacturers who have a single (or very few) products I would like to offer. Such an arrangment is not doable. It's an all or none deal.
I haven't named any names but the biggest are the worst.
I guess it sounds like I should get out of the business. Maybe, but I think I'll stick with it a while because my little corner of the worl has some incredible divers in it. We managesd that despite the agencies and especially the manufacturers.
You can't make any money doing thing in this business my way but I never and I mean never have to buy my own beer. Got to love the divers who, after every outing seeing other divers and classes going on, make a trip into the store just to thank you again for helping them to not dive like the others they see.
BP/wings will never be mainstream.
Good trim will never be mainstream.
Good vis where divers are present will never be mainstream.
Iguana Don
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Like was mentioned before, once you have your BP/W there is no such thing as "New and Improved" or "New Colors" or "New Features" therefore eventually all BC Manufacturers would be outta business.
Don
Don
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I know its not difficult, but how can you adjust your harness, get in the water, try it out, get out, fine tune it, get back in the water and confirm the setting all in 15 mins?
You do set it to how it feels in the water, not on land right?
Dave
I may have fine-tuned the fit in later dives, but the basic fit of my first BP was set before it ever got wet. All I needed was to don the wetsuit, mark appropriately with chalk, then adjust (out of the wetsuit, of course), and repeat as necessary. Took only 15 min or so the first time.
It took even less time when I moved to the Halcyon, since I was already familiar with the process. Both initial fittings were done solo, btw. It's not terribly complicated, really.
Dave... it isn't as big a deal as some folk make it out to be. You can do it on land without a tank... wearing a coat to simulate an exposure suit.
You should be able to reach back and touch the top of the plate.
The shoulder straps should be snug once the waist strap is buckled through the crotch strap but the crotch strap shouldn't be so short it is pulling the waist strap down into a V shape in front.
When it is close to right the shoulder straps should be loose enough that you can pull them off of your shoulders with the waist belt undone from the crotch strap by hooking your thumbs into the D-rings.
Now go out and dive the thing. If it seems too loose, ie. allows the tank & BP to shift around... shorten up the shoulder straps a touch before the next dive.
After you get it just right take a DIRf and Andrew will tighten it done some more for you.
You should be able to reach back and touch the top of the plate.
The shoulder straps should be snug once the waist strap is buckled through the crotch strap but the crotch strap shouldn't be so short it is pulling the waist strap down into a V shape in front.
When it is close to right the shoulder straps should be loose enough that you can pull them off of your shoulders with the waist belt undone from the crotch strap by hooking your thumbs into the D-rings.
Now go out and dive the thing. If it seems too loose, ie. allows the tank & BP to shift around... shorten up the shoulder straps a touch before the next dive.
After you get it just right take a DIRf and Andrew will tighten it done some more for you.
Give that man a ciiiiiggggaaarrrr!
(Yes, I confirmed it in my pool, and then made a SMALL adjustment. The rig would have been divable as I originally set it up, but I did make one final adjustment before ACTUALLY diving it - unless you count my pool as a "dive")
(Yes, I confirmed it in my pool, and then made a SMALL adjustment. The rig would have been divable as I originally set it up, but I did make one final adjustment before ACTUALLY diving it - unless you count my pool as a "dive"
)leadweight
Contributor
AS usual, Rick is one of the few voices of sanity around here. Dive shops do not sell backplates because their customers are not asking for them. The DIR crowd would have you believe this is because of some evil plot by the dive industry to produce bad products that no one really wants. IMO, these products were designed to deal with reall needs of most recreational divers.
Issues of comfort and ease of use (as in adjustment) will keep the BP/wing from ever becomming as popular (and therefor asked for by customers) as the incredibly popular (and I don't own one) Ranger and the much maligned (but loved by many divers and really useful for photographers) "poodle" jacket.
Issues of comfort and ease of use (as in adjustment) will keep the BP/wing from ever becomming as popular (and therefor asked for by customers) as the incredibly popular (and I don't own one) Ranger and the much maligned (but loved by many divers and really useful for photographers) "poodle" jacket.
Comfort?
Comfort is exactly the reason I didn't buy a jacket BC and why I stay with the BP.
I don't like the way the jacket-style BC constricts my chest when I'm on the surface, nor do I like the sensation of swimming around inside of thing. If nothing but a jacket BC were made, I would have given up diving shortly after OW.
Have you ever actually tried a backplate? Your comments about comfort, etc. lead me to doubt it.
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