Alright, why don't more shops sell BP+Wing setups

[metridium]

leadweight wrote...
IMO, these products were designed to deal with reall needs of most recreational divers.

The vast majority of gear is sold to newly-minted OW divers, or even those still in training. I would humbly submit that most divers at that stage have no idea what they truly need, and that they rely on the LDS to inform them of those needs and then provide it.

Kids probably think they'll want to eat greasy fast food for the rest of their lives, too. Some undoubtedly go on to do just that, but others find they want to go on to new and better things, and regret the time they wasted beforehand.

 

[Jonathan]

glad you worked it out Genesis - sorry I should have mentioned the port on the bottom, things you take for granted when you know things.....

As to the comfort thing until recently I always used mushroom nuts as I thought winged ones would dig in, also thought a BP would be uncomfortable - wrong on both counts!

Jonathan

 

[Genesis]

My "conventional" Nighthawk BC (on eBay, by the way, if anyone wants to buy it - its only got about 20 dives on it!), weighs 9lbs. It is roughly neutral (Scubapro does get THAT right - not all do, as some BCs are positive!)

My BP+Wing weighs 12 lbs. But its 8lbs NEGATIVE! Only 4lbs of that is "dead weight", .vs. 9lbs for the Nighthawk.

So let's work this one out, shall we?

With the Nighthawk, I need 15lbs on my belt with an AL80 and a 3/2 wetsuit. My kit weighs 9 +3 (reg) + 32 (AL80) + ~6 (weight of air) + 15 (lead) = 65 lbs. I exit the water with 60 lbs on my back assuming I leave some of the air in the tank (I didn't need my buddy's octo )

With the BP+Wing, I need 7lbs on my belt with the same AL80 and the same 3/2 wetsuit. My kit weighs 12 + 3 (reg) + 32 (AL80) + ~6 (air) + 7 (lead) = 60lbs. I exit the water with 55lbs on my back assuming I leave some of the air in my tank.

Now you say "what's 5 lbs". To which I reply, "nearly 10%, and definitely noticable!"

What did I get for my 5 lbs? A kit that has weight integration and doesn't require a belt. A kit that is less adjustable, but can be adjusted far more quickly. A kit that probably traps a lot of water on the way back on the boat, meaning that my 60lb "exit weight" may be hopelessly optimistic (water weighs 8lbs/gal, you know!)

Choose your poison.

My sole issue is that if you're claiming to be serving consumers, you darn well ought to try to make recommendations that make sense, not just ones that make you money.

I mean, let's be real. If the simple question - "are you EVER going to possibly dive deco, in a cave, or in an overhead' was asked, and if the answer to that was either "yes" or "maybe", then why are you selling someone a "conventional" BC when all that needs to be changed on a BP+Wing is the wing?

At least they did me ok with the reg....

 

[ckharlan66]

Alot of the shops that aren't on the coast don't know what BPs and wings are. You can try to discribe it as a tech rig but then they think you want a Ranger or Transpac. Some know about OMS but very few know about Halcyon. I have been in several shops in several states and have found this to be the case frequently. If they don't know about it they can't sell it.

I know alot of this has to do with the shops not staying current and only knowing about what they sell but alot of the shop's only information comes from the Dive Mags and BP's and wing aren't covered in there very much.

Chad

 

[leadweight]

I have tried a backplate. Twelve dives over five days. The shoulder straps were uncomfortable no matter how much adjustment tinkering I did, and tinker I did until my fingers ached. There was no way to get the thing right. Either it was tight enoug to bind (especially if I tried to reach out with one of my arms, and I was not swimming with my arms) or so loose the tank flopped around.

I found it particullarly frustrating that adjustments could not be made in the water. By the end of the week I had some really sore armpits. Other people have complained of this exact problem in this forum. Some divers report that the bottom of the plate digs into their back. And yes, the LDS that rented me the thing adjusted it and told me how it should feel & their instructions on fit were about the same as UP's as he has posted in this forum. I can definitely see that the difficulty of set-up would keep many shops from renting BP's.

If your BP is comfortable, that is fine and I consider you fortunate because I liked the simplicity, durability and streamlining of the BP/wing. I must say that after reading this forum for several weeks I became presold on a BP. At the LDS they said rent one first becasuse one of the employees there (I have known several of them for 4 years) said that it might not be my cup of tea. Was she ever right.

You, and other BP users (and the DIR community) can make all the dive industry conspiracy theory arguments you like; theorize about how LDS's sell unsuspecting new divers poodle jackets. IMO, to tell a newly minted diver in this forum to buy a BP is no more than looking for affirmation of one's own preferences and somewhat irresponsible unless the diver has expressed an interest in going technical from the start.

I can't tell you how many divers I know (at least one of which is a really great instructor) can't stand back bouyancy to start with. What are you going to do, force them into a BP?

You may think that I am anti BP troll. That is not true. What bugs me is the often distorted, one size fits all, DIR-ish there is no alternative to a BP attitude that is all too prevalent around here.

Don't take it personally, I bet you would make a great dive buddy.

 

[Rick Murchison]

metridium once bubbled...
Comfort?
Have you ever actually tried a backplate? Your comments about comfort, etc. lead me to doubt it.

Hmmm... well... lessee... looking through my shed I see what I've accumulated over the years... an original hardpak with harness (no wings for that one - didn't exist), a "Techni-Pro" jacket (no longer manufactured), a Seaquest "Explorer" tropical cut (sort of a back inflate & half jacket combo - also no longer manufactured), a Transpac II harness, a Seaquest Pro-QD jacket, and a FredT backplate & harness. (There are four other jackets belonging to the girls but I don't wear those so they don't count). Since I wear each of these at least a few times every year, I am qualified to have an opinion on what's comfortable to me. From most comfortable to least comfortable I rate them as follows:
(1) Original hardpak on a '72. No weights, no wetsuit, no floatation device, as free as you can be on Scuba...
(2) Transpac II
(3/4) Explorer/ProQD (varies day-to-day)
(5) BP
(6) Techni Pro
Try as I might, I can't get any of my girls to like a BP. (I only know one lady who prefers a BP over a Diva - and I know a lot of ladies)
Like I said before, supply and demand... just that simple.
Rick

 

[metridium]

leadweight wrote...
I have tried a backplate. Twelve dives over five days. The shoulder straps were uncomfortable no matter how much adjustment tinkering I did, and tinker I did until my fingers ached. There was no way to get the thing right. Either it was tight enoug to bind (especially if I tried to reach out with one of my arms, and I was not swimming with my arms) or so loose the tank flopped around.

Ouch. Sorry to hear you had such a bad time with it. What sort of exposure suit were you wearing at the time?

leadweight wrote...
I can definitely see that the difficulty of set-up would keep many shops from renting BP's.

I have to agree with that.

leadweight wrote...
If your BP is comfortable, that is fine and I consider you fortunate because I liked the simplicity, durability and streamlining of the BP/wing.

Two BPs, actually. As far as BPs are concerned, it looks like either I'm very lucky or you're very unlucky. From what I know of other BP divers, I'd have to say I think it's the latter. That's with no offense intended, of course.

leadweight wrote...
You, and other BP users (and the DIR community) can make all the dive industry conspiracy theory arguments you like; theorize about how LDS's sell unsuspecting new divers poodle jackets.

I'm neither DIR nor into conspiracy theories. I'm all in favor of choices and giving the individual the information necessary to make the best choices for himself/herself. How many LDSs do you see advocating that?

I do believe in what I wrote about the nature of the market, but that's based on my observations of human nature, marketing, and manipulation.

leadweight wrote...
IMO, to tell a newly minted diver in this forum to buy a BP is no more than looking for affirmation of one's own preferences and somewhat irresponsible unless the diver has expressed an interest in going technical from the start.

I'd disagree, because unless the diver is sure he/she will never go into more advanced forms of diving, it's always better to leave one's options open than to choose a dead-end product and have to buy twice when you realize you want to do more.

leadweight wrote...
I can't tell you how many divers I know (at least one of which is a really great instructor) can't stand back bouyancy to start with. What are you going to do, force them into a BP?

Who said anything about that? I want to make sure people aren't forced into some POS jacket BC because that's all the LDS can be bothered to sell.

leadweight wrote...
You may think that I am anti BP troll. That is not true. What bugs me is the often distorted, one size fits all, DIR-ish there is no alternative to a BP attitude that is all too prevalent around here.

There are definitely alternatives, but I've found none better...or even equal.

leadweight wrote...
Don't take it personally, I bet you would make a great dive buddy.

Thanks, but betcha wouldn't say that if you knew I dive solo!

 

[roakey]

leadweight once bubbled...
AS usual, Rick is one of the few voices of sanity around here. Dive shops do not sell backplates because their customers are not asking for them. The DIR crowd would have you believe this is because of some evil plot by the dive industry to produce bad products that no one really wants. IMO, these products were designed to deal with reall needs of most recreational divers.

Issues of comfort and ease of use (as in adjustment) will keep the BP/wing from ever becomming as popular (and therefor asked for by customers) as the incredibly popular (and I don't own one) Ranger and the much maligned (but loved by many divers and really useful for photographers) "poodle" jacket.

35 years ago the same line of logic was being used for some radical cave gear that some people were trying to introduce into the recreational market.

Were they successful? You tell me: The octo, the SPG and the BC. Want something more recent from the technical community? Nitrox.

We've got front row seats to a mini-revolution; it'll be interesting to see when (not if) it pans out. Not many people know about BP and wings now, but especially with the Internet it's changing. Scubapro offering a BP was a major watershed event. We're no where near the knee of the curve yet, but when enough people start asking about BPs, the major manufacturers will surely step up to the plate. After all, there’s money to be made! But it’s going to take some time before the demand gets there, it’s a chicken-and-egg problem.

Of course I’d never expect the marketing types to leave well enough alone, so I expect all sorts of weird harnesses and stuff to come with them, but it’ll be a big step in the right direction.

Oh, and don’t forget about marketing types and color: http://www.abysmal.com/pages/images/backplates-colors.jpg

Roak

 

[TCDiver1]

roakey once bubbled...


Oh, and don’t forget about marketing types and color: http://www.abysmal.com/pages/images/backplates-colors.jpg

Roak

And remember, it's always better to look good than to feel good.
The color coordinated BP only enhances the looks of your basic, well dressed diver.

Forget that you basically can't see it, we know it's there, and we know you be stylin!

 

[leadweight]

Roakey;

There is a lot of truth to what you say. I believe that the backplate thing will influence the design of of things to come, with a return to minimalism that was prevalent years ago with the standard backpack.

You might take a look at something made by AP Valves. I think it is called the travtek 13 or 16. Some people in this forum have been experimenting with the plastic single tank backpack and the northern diver auxiliary wing.

Weird harneses? Actually I wish that I had a chance to try out the Diverite delux harness or the OMS harness. These might have been more comfortable than the standard continuous web. I think that some of the underarm binding thing is due to the shoulderstrap going right back to the BP at waist level. Something like the adjustable shoulder strap attachment point as used on the Transpac ll would probably improve things in this area.

I wish I saved the URL, but somewhere I saw a design study for a metal backplate that would work ith either singles or doubles without a STA. The ridge in the center was wider and concave to hold a single close to the diver's back, but not so wide as to interfere with the bolt up of banded doubles.

I like minimalism & simplicity. But, I also like comfort and a bit more optimization for the single tank diver.