An uncomfortable situation, Your opinions please
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I think I would have told that DM to go piss off. I won't even get into the reg issue, but the thumbing the dive at the safety stop and the DM pulling you back down is plain retarded!! Any diver can end any dive for any reason. Period!!! If he did that to me, I'd bet everyone would have heard me cussing at him underwater, and then again on the boat.
OP
I woulda had no issue with that and woulda given the ok. There isn't a sighn for a loogey in the back of the throat-to answer your question. I just prefer not to spit a thick green stuff through my second stage.
.My thinking-I'm only 1 minute early(when I ascended they were already on their SS)Im not feeling comfortable hanging onto my weights,there was no current,I had clear viz down to the other 5 divers and an smb as point of reference,I had indicated to my buddy I wanted to go up and why.He gave me the ok.
DevonDiver
N/A
In general, I'd rather hear a report about an over-attentive DM, than an under-attentive one. The DM mentioned sounds inexperienced to me - and might have being having difficulty differentiating experience/comfort levels in his group, coupled with a little residual paranoia from role-play training on their DM course.
I wouldn't cast judgement until I heard the DM's perspective, however, purely from the account written, I'd have the following speculative points;
1) Reg Replacement - If a diver has regulator in hand, and seems in-control and calm, then the DM shouldn't physically intervene to replace the regulator into their mouth. If the DM did have concerns about the diver's air-source, then they should assume a problem and be ready to offer their own AAS for the diver to use. It's a bad call to push the diver's own regulator back into their mouth, because it may have been removed due to a problem with gas supply or it may have been taking on water etc. Over-zealous intervention in this manner can lead to diver discomfort/panic. In this situation, the DM seems to have made an assumption about the diver's competence - which possibly shows that the DM had failed to ascertain and understand the qualification, skill, comfort and competence of the divers under his supervision.
2) Physical Control of Diver - There are times when a supervising DM might need to physically control a diver, especially with regards to depth. To make the decision to physically manipulate the diver, rather than simply communicate/advise them, there has to be some immediate danger, coupled with a lack of timely response by the diver to communication. I've intervened to arrest a divers ascent and descent before - always of safety reasons and always because the diver concerned didn't react effectively to communication and/or seemed unable to take action for themselves. Typically in an uncontrolled descent, fast ascent or when a diver was exceeding maximum depth/time and heading into deco. The example given in this thread does not seem like one of those scenarios - and physical intervention seems to have been carried out in a non-critical situation that didn't demand urgency. In this situation, a slow, controlled and deliberate ascent was being conducted... as the diver is entitled to do. Coupled with this, the DM seemed to make an assumption and didn't confirm why the diver was ascending (there could have been a safety issue causing the ascent decision).
I wouldn't cast judgement until I heard the DM's perspective, however, purely from the account written, I'd have the following speculative points;
1) Reg Replacement - If a diver has regulator in hand, and seems in-control and calm, then the DM shouldn't physically intervene to replace the regulator into their mouth. If the DM did have concerns about the diver's air-source, then they should assume a problem and be ready to offer their own AAS for the diver to use. It's a bad call to push the diver's own regulator back into their mouth, because it may have been removed due to a problem with gas supply or it may have been taking on water etc. Over-zealous intervention in this manner can lead to diver discomfort/panic. In this situation, the DM seems to have made an assumption about the diver's competence - which possibly shows that the DM had failed to ascertain and understand the qualification, skill, comfort and competence of the divers under his supervision.
2) Physical Control of Diver - There are times when a supervising DM might need to physically control a diver, especially with regards to depth. To make the decision to physically manipulate the diver, rather than simply communicate/advise them, there has to be some immediate danger, coupled with a lack of timely response by the diver to communication. I've intervened to arrest a divers ascent and descent before - always of safety reasons and always because the diver concerned didn't react effectively to communication and/or seemed unable to take action for themselves. Typically in an uncontrolled descent, fast ascent or when a diver was exceeding maximum depth/time and heading into deco. The example given in this thread does not seem like one of those scenarios - and physical intervention seems to have been carried out in a non-critical situation that didn't demand urgency. In this situation, a slow, controlled and deliberate ascent was being conducted... as the diver is entitled to do. Coupled with this, the DM seemed to make an assumption and didn't confirm why the diver was ascending (there could have been a safety issue causing the ascent decision).
Kazbanz...in a sense that is the price to pay when you sign up on DM led dives... To go by their rules. Time limited dives, I can relate to that having done DM led boat dives in Coz, Cuba and Bonaire, to name a few places. My last two trips in Coz, I was part of advanced divers group. In this case, we did 60 mins dive unless somebody hit reserve at which point he went up the SMB line with his buddy. It did not matter if we had air and NDL to stay longer. This is what was briefed and we adhered to it. First trip in Coz, 45 mins dives were the norm...again same story. If you do not want those types of restrictions then you need to find a dive ops that will drop you in and then pick you up without a DM.
On all my dives, unless air is really an issue, I will remain with the group and the DM underwater until everybody has cleared their safety stop and then proceed to the surface when the DM gives the signal. The only time I will do differently is if I have a problem, in which case I will tell him that I have a problem by giving him or her the proper hand signal, then point to the problem area and then gives the thumbs up. That way, it is much easier for the DM to keep track on the folks he is responsible for.
Not sure if you did talk to that DM after but if you did not, you sure missed a good opportunity to get his point of view which would probably be better than what you will get here from a bunch of individuals who are merely speculating as to his real intent. Not sure why he yanked you down but it would have been so much easier to ask him in the first place.
BTW, since you are talking about communication, where was your buddy and how come you did not show him your weight pocket and asked him or her to help you put in back in place rather than keep it in your hands. I have asked buddies and friends to give me a hand with something before and I have done the same for them or others as well.
As an aside, I always tend to smirk when I read anti-authority posts originating from people who do hold some form of autority (instructor, let's say) and then try to imagine how they would react if somebody would behave with them the very same way they say they would act to others in certain diving situations.
On all my dives, unless air is really an issue, I will remain with the group and the DM underwater until everybody has cleared their safety stop and then proceed to the surface when the DM gives the signal. The only time I will do differently is if I have a problem, in which case I will tell him that I have a problem by giving him or her the proper hand signal, then point to the problem area and then gives the thumbs up. That way, it is much easier for the DM to keep track on the folks he is responsible for.
Not sure if you did talk to that DM after but if you did not, you sure missed a good opportunity to get his point of view which would probably be better than what you will get here from a bunch of individuals who are merely speculating as to his real intent. Not sure why he yanked you down but it would have been so much easier to ask him in the first place.
BTW, since you are talking about communication, where was your buddy and how come you did not show him your weight pocket and asked him or her to help you put in back in place rather than keep it in your hands. I have asked buddies and friends to give me a hand with something before and I have done the same for them or others as well.
As an aside, I always tend to smirk when I read anti-authority posts originating from people who do hold some form of autority (instructor, let's say) and then try to imagine how they would react if somebody would behave with them the very same way they say they would act to others in certain diving situations.
OP
Hey thanks guys for the FB. DD you pretty well hit it on the head from my POV.
I did actually wonder if the DM concerned had recently had a bad scare.
I know it has to be pretty hellish jumping from experienced divers to freshly minted divers and back again.-I probably shoulda got an indication when the dm showed huge suprise I carried my own smb/reel and a torch.
---------- Post added April 11th, 2012 at 02:43 PM ----------
Rttee it mighta got lost in the posts but It was a minute before we were going to the ss anyway. I had shown my buddy the weight problem and given the dive was basicly over thought it was easier just to thumb the dive.My buddy saw and agreed with my decision.
Im not anti-authority in any way. In another part of my life I'm an instructor and employ staff so have been there done that.
I did actually wonder if the DM concerned had recently had a bad scare.
I know it has to be pretty hellish jumping from experienced divers to freshly minted divers and back again.-I probably shoulda got an indication when the dm showed huge suprise I carried my own smb/reel and a torch.
---------- Post added April 11th, 2012 at 02:43 PM ----------
Rttee it mighta got lost in the posts but It was a minute before we were going to the ss anyway. I had shown my buddy the weight problem and given the dive was basicly over thought it was easier just to thumb the dive.My buddy saw and agreed with my decision.
Im not anti-authority in any way. In another part of my life I'm an instructor and employ staff so have been there done that.
R
redacted
Guest
Only in your mind. Just look at all the court decisions - if you can find any.
DevonDiver
N/A
Most DMs get a good scare every now and then... some evolve to be less responsive to issues...protective denial, whilst others become over-zealous/stress-heads. The best DMs maintain a healthy balance of awareness and anticipation, but experience tempers this with a knowledge of when intervention is critical...and when it is not.
I think most DMs go through several phases as they gain experience....
1) Qualification Jitters. Post-qualification anxiety, fearing the worst and being apprehensive of their responsibility.
2) Noobie Dive God. A sense of well-being and relaxation as they gain initial experience in dive leadership.
3) Stress-Head. High stress, bordering on paranoia, when they experience their first few 'incidents'.
4) Chill Pill. Normalization as they realize that they have the capability to deal with such incidents on a routine basis. Can also lead to negligence.
5) Relaxed Vigilance. Awareness, assessment and incident resolution capability all at matching levels.
The DM mentioned on this thread sounds 'classic inexperienced'.... as if applying training without the tempering of experience. His reaction to the regulator removal was straight from a confined water DM teaching session. His reaction to the early ascent seems to show inflexible thinking and/or dogmatic adherence to his basic taught knowledge.. i.e. divers 'must' do a safety stop, 'must' stay together (under his care) etc etc
stevensamler
Contributor
22m dive = 72'.6" round to 80' = 30 min no deco limit , maybe the dm wanted to do mandatory 15 min safety stop that could be why he was pulling you down.
I've had quite a few experiences with dive guides, which have convinced me that the majority deal with people who can hardly dive at all, and they interpret what they see accordingly. I had an experience where my husband and I were practicing sharing gas for a few minutes, and the dive guide saw us and came up and tried to put my husband on his gas; despite both of us showing him that we had more than adequate gas supplies, we had trouble convincing him we were fine. I've had another ask me about my buoyancy control problems, because I was staying somewhat shallower than the group on a dive, because I was controlling my decompression status. (Note that my husband was with me.)
I think in every case, you have to try to see the situation through the eyes of someone who is used to dealing with people who can't manage their equipment, can't manage their buoyancy, can't manage their gas, and often panic. That doesn't make what the guide was doing RIGHT, but it may give you more of an idea of why he was the way he was.
I think in every case, you have to try to see the situation through the eyes of someone who is used to dealing with people who can't manage their equipment, can't manage their buoyancy, can't manage their gas, and often panic. That doesn't make what the guide was doing RIGHT, but it may give you more of an idea of why he was the way he was.
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