Info Are Pony Bottles Dangerous?

[johndiver999]

Here is a better question: Are there any other approaches that will get divers to the surface safely in case of emergency?

While there is nothing dangerous about a pony bottle per se, people may subconsciously cut corners when incorporating pony bottles in dive gear. Do you actually know what bottle size you need for a specific dive? Do you practice emergency drills to ensure that you're using valves? Do you know the type of failures that pony bottles will actually solve? Are there any other ways of dealing with those failures?

Yes, buddy separation occurs and, again, it is a skills problem. Many dive incidents begin prior to divers entering water. Poor dive planning, bad gear, lack of proper team planning, and so on.

The point is - think about the alternatives, problems, and solutions before you start strapping extra gear. In many cases, thinking, practice, and team work will benefit you more than an extra 40cf.

You sound absolutely silly. The pony works in ANY kind of failure - it does not matter why. You seem to want to argue that the best way to prevent accidents is to avoid accidents - no sheeet!

This week I screwed up. I was distracted and about 110 feet deep, I was wrestling with a lobster and getting pissed and probably breathing too hard. I knew I was close to the end of the dive; I put the lobster in the bag, grabbed the console, and felt the hose was limp. I was so pissed, I didn't even look at the pressure.

I pressed the inflate button and relaxed and did not kick and tried to slow my breathing. At around 60 feet or something, I took a peak at my computer, I had thought that I was approaching the nodeco limit but apparently failed to check my gauges frequently enough. So when I checked the computer, it said like 5-6 minutes of required deco.

So now I was really pissed at myself, not watching time or air pressure carefully. Perhaps I accidentally went a little deep at the end of the dive and moved out to around 115, which might have caused the computer to quickly spank me with some deco? I'm not super worried about going into a little deco, but I really hate being irresponsible and not being aware of it and making a conscious decision about it. I've not done something like this in the last several hundreds of dives, perhaps I am out of practice because I didn't dive for almost two weeks.

Did my normal deep stop at 50 to 40 feet for a minute or so and then made my way to 30 feet, all still sipping my air. I then decided I should be "smart" and confirm the pony is going to work before I run completely out, so I switch to the pony for the remainder of the deco and an extra minute or so - just to be super safe LOL.

Switched back to the primary on the surface and breathed it climbing out and until I dropped my tank on board. I ended up using about 1000 psi in a 13 cuft pony.

There is this week's example of why I wear a pony bottle. It helps unlucky divers and stupid ones. I was solo so there was no buddy to look to.

 

[SlugLife]

I've always viewed pony bottles as equipment focused on solving skills problems.

I view a redundant independent air supply (often "pony bottle") as a sort of life-insurance or PTSD insurance. Whatever goes wrong on a dive, I have a backup plan. That "goes wrong" could be all kinds of things, including being a idiot in some form (distractions, planning, etc), but also entanglements, equipment failures, and various other unanticipated emergencies.

Only some of that is a skills issue. You can reduce, but usually not eliminate some of the other risks. Even if it's a 1% chance I'll have a severe incident across the next 500 dives, I'd still rather have that redundant air with me. While I'd like to be confident in my ability to CESA, it might still be a very scary experience, and better hope I notice a problem quickly enough to start my ascent immediately.

You should always plan your dives, plan gas consumption, and practice emergency drills.

Do you plan your regulator hose blowing up?

If you're a rec diver, you must dive with a buddy who will be your first source of assistance shall you end up running out in emergency (e.g., a critical first stage failure). A pony bottle on a rec dive may give you a false sense of security or let you cut corners.

Unless you always dive with the same super-reliable buddy, or as part of a specialized team, it appears your dive-buddy is giving you a false sense of security. Your "swimming redundant air" has never swam off to look at a fish?

If you're a tech diver, you probably have doubles/sidemount/ccr and know how to stage, so the pony is not useful.

Sure, I don't need my pony when running regular sidemount. The goal is safety, which is enhanced by redundancy, and one way of achieving that is the pony-bottle. However, I also often don't need 2x AL-80 tanks for a 40 minute dive at 10-meters (30ft).

Lots of divers don't carry pony bottles, never have an incident, and never need one. However, among the divers that do die, or are critically injured, or survive but have a traumatic experience .... how many of them would have avoided that if they also had a pony bottle on them?

 

[mr_v]

You sound absolutely silly. The pony works in ANY kind of failure - it does not matter why. You seem to want to argue that the best way to prevent accidents is to avoid accidents - no sheeet!

This week I screwed up. I was distracted and about 110 feet deep, I was wrestling with a lobster and getting pissed and probably breathing too hard. I knew I was close to the end of the dive; I put the lobster in the bag, grabbed the console, and felt the hose was limp. I was so pissed, I didn't even look at the pressure.

I pressed the inflate button and relaxed and did not kick and tried to slow my breathing. At around 60 feet or something, I took a peak at my computer, I had thought that I was approaching the nodeco limit but apparently failed to check my gauges frequently enough. So when I checked the computer, it said like 5-6 minutes of required deco.

So now I was really pissed at myself, not watching time or air pressure carefully. Perhaps I accidentally went a little deep at the end of the dive and moved out to around 115, which might have caused the computer to quickly spank me with some deco? I'm not super worried about going into a little deco, but I really hate being irresponsible and not being aware of it and making a conscious decision about it.

Did my normal deep stop at 50 to 40 feet for a minute or so and then made my way to 30 feet, all still sipping my air. I then decided I should be "smart" and confirm the pony is going to work before I run completely out, so I switch to the pony for the remainder of the deco and an extra minute or so - just to be super safe LOL.

Switched back to the primary on the surface and breathed it climbing out and until I dropped my tank on board. I ended up using about 1000 psi in a 13 cuft pony.

There is this week's example of why I wear a pony bottle. It helps unlucky divers and stupid ones. I was solo so there was no buddy to look to.

Do you not see the chain of events?

 

[Boarderguy]

Proper gas planning prevents incidents before they become emergencies.

Hahahahahaha

Proper gas planning is utilizing what you have for the dive ahead of you essentially. It does not take into account a free flow near your turn pressure. It does not take into account a burst hose. It does not take into account current pressing your purge causing a flow (happened to my buddy). It does not take into account your buddy blowing through their reserves because of exertion and needing your air. By having a pony you can share your back gas down to X psi and then switch to the pony. If you have one slung you might even just pass it off. Your absolutes in diving will get you hurt and make for contentious replies.

 

[johndiver999]

Hahahahahaha

Proper gas planning is utilizing what you have for the dive ahead of you essentially. It does not take into account a free flow near your turn pressure. It does not take into account a burst hose. It does not take into account current pressing your purge causing a flow (happened to my buddy). It does not take into account your buddy blowing through their reserves because of exertion and needing your air. By having a pony you can share your back gas down to X psi and then switch to the pony. If you have one slung you might even just pass it off. Your absolutes in diving will get you hurt and make for contentious replies.

Proper gas planning (on the boat) also doesn't help when you are a careless dumbass while on the bottom. Thought I would add that to the list.

 

[mr_v]

Do you plan your regulator hose blowing up?

Yes

Unless you always dive with the same super-reliable buddy, or as part of a specialized team, it appears your dive-buddy is giving you a false sense of security. Your "swimming redundant air" has never swam off to look at a fish?

Dive only with the team you know well and practice together. Or solo.

Sure, I don't need my pony when running regular sidemount. The goal is safety, which is enhanced by redundancy, and one way of achieving that is the pony-bottle. However, I also often don't need 2x AL-80 tanks for a 40 minute dive at 10-meters (30ft).

Lots of divers don't carry pony bottles, never have an incident, and never need one. However, among the divers that do die, or are critically injured, or survive but have a traumatic experience .... how many of them would have avoided that if they also had a pony bottle on them?

According to DAN, ~1/3 of fatalities are due to out of air. Out of those, only ~10% are equipment related. Most are due to lack of preparation, planning or skills. I am including "panic" into skills and proper training and practice may prevent panic. This data is from a recent study, I think 2021. Look it up - statistics speak for themselves.

 

[SlugLife]

Here is a better question: Are there any other approaches that will get divers to the surface safely in case of emergency?

That's not a real question.

people may subconsciously cut corners when incorporating pony bottles in dive gear.

In life, there are things under my control, and there are things which are not. I can (usually) control whether I bring a pony bottle with me. I can (usually) control my level of discipline and my dive-plan.

I can take precautions to reduce some risks, such as going slower to mitigate entanglements, or more regular gear maintenance, or limiting depth, or surfacing early. However, there are many things not under our control. Do you service your own gear? I've seen multiple reports of shop-serviced gear being done incorrectly and resulting in incidents.

I can't control whether some other diver thinks a pony bottle makes them invincible and dives like an idiot.

Proper gas planning prevents incidents before they become emergencies.

False. It only reduced the likelihood of emergencies. Poor gas planning and monitoring is only one way of running out of gas.

Here is the question I'd ask based on the example you've presented: what is the worst case exist scenario and how much gas do I need to take with me to make it happen.

I have had a regulator hose come loose on me, back before I started diving with a pony. That's obviously preventable, by properly tightening hoses, but that's only one of many things that can go wrong, and only one of many ways a regulator could fail.

How much gas? Irrelevant. 1000cu wouldn't do me any good if it's escaping too quickly or is unusable.

 

[Boarderguy]

Proper gas planning (on the boat) also doesn't help when you are a careless dumbass while on the bottom. Thought I would add that to the list.

Nobody that believes team diving is the only way has ever had that issue because team... yeah that's it...

Distractions are fun

 

[MyBuddy]

I've always viewed pony bottles as equipment focused on solving skills problems.

You should always plan your dives, plan gas consumption, and practice emergency drills.

If you're a rec diver, you must dive with a buddy who will be your first source of assistance shall you end up running out in emergency (e.g., a critical first stage failure). A pony bottle on a rec dive may give you a false sense of security or let you cut corners.

If you're a tech diver, you probably have doubles/sidemount/ccr and know how to stage, so the pony is not useful.

So you can think of no situations where a diver would find themselves in an equipment related out of gas situation? Did you pluck the blinders from the dead horse being beaten above?

I’ve heard of and experienced many equipment failures that could result in a OOG situation.

• Personally:
  • A full on free-flow at 85’ depth in cold water that was rapidly emptying the tank. If my buddy wasn’t there I could have probably surfaced at 30 fpm before the gas ran out since it was the beginning of the dive with a 117cf tank. If it occurred at the end of the dive and my buddy had been lost in the crap viz I would have been performing my first real world CESA. It’s also worth noting my buddy was on CCR and gave me his bailout so I basically was given a pony mid dive. He was now without his bailout and fortunately he didn’t have an issue with the loop. (This is what got me to start using a pony.)
  • O-ring where the DIN attaches to the 1st stage blew after being charged for 10-15 min. I could have easily been on the bottom at 110’ if I’d turned the gas on right before gearing up and splashing.
• 2nd Hand:
  • I know a lady that had her relatively new 1st stage literally explode, splitting in half as she was geared up and waiting to splash.
• Read here on SB
  • Someone left the dip tube out of the tank and when the diver went head down some corrosion or debris fell in and clogged the hole.
  • Someone had the lining of a miflex hose crumble and clog the 2nd stage.
  • Someone’s 1st stage turret failed at depth.

Would a buddy being right next to you be able to assist? Absolutely! But buddies get lost in poor viz, wander off to take pictures of pretty pink dolphins, are behind you in a narrow swim through, freak out it the event of a real emergency, shoot to the surface because of a loss of buoyancy, has failed to monitor their gas or gas plan for to divers to ascend with an elevated breathing rate, etc.

Someone with a false sense of security and cuts corners with a pony probably also has a false sense of security and is cutting corners with a buddy.

​

 

[SlugLife]

According to DAN, ~1/3 of fatalities are due to out of air.

Examining cause is important, but I was focused on solutions:

how many of them would have avoided that if they also had a pony bottle on them?

For example, lets say an entanglement occurs. The "cause" would typically be considered "entanglement," not OOA. However, if the diver also had a 19cu with them, they would have had enough air to solve the entanglement and surface. If a diver gets spooked, panics, and rockets to the surface, that would not be considered OOA. However, that same diver may not have panicked or taken a more measured approach if they knew they also had an extra 19cu emergency-supply with them. What about lost mask, dove too deep, got lost in a wreck, or .... many other "causes?" Setting aside medical issues, the addition of a pony bottle at least increases the fighting-chance a diver has.

Back to the "entanglement" example, I might also suggest a better (or even redundant) cutting device. Though even that has limits, for example, I sometimes come across thick steel cable underwater, which even 12-inch tin-snips wouldn't cut through. However, the "pony bottle mindset" often leads to divers considering better or redundant cutting devices, or various other solutions to dive-safety issues.

If a diver dies of a heart-attack underwater, sure the pony won't help them, but neither will gas-planning, skills, or anything else you talked about. Staying focused on the things a diver can control, redundant air is a fantastic, quick, and effective way of increasing safety (when used properly). And sure, people should also focus on skills, safety precautions, dive planning, etc as well.