AWESOME VIDEO: Save Goliath Grouper (Endangered Species) from renewed Trophy Fishing

[dumpsterDiver]

Clearly some of us are not versed in our study of species.


The Goliath are NOT rebounding tremendously.

Yes they are. It has been a huge success.

If so they would be seen throughout the South Atlantic & Caribbean.

They are BARELY recovering & still ENDANGERED by OVERFISHING (i.e. poaching, accidental catch in nets, 'catch & release' where the fish still dies).

What information have you used to determine that the species is "endangered"? Fishing is CLOSED and the population is rebounding very quickly in the US. Do you have any data to support the contention that incidental take isbeing detrimental to the population?


They are NOT EDIBLE due to high mercury levels.

They used to be a some what significant source of food. What information do you have to support this contention? Is the mercury content higher than other groupers that are commercially and recreationally harvest everyday?


There is NO SENSIBLE HARVEST for the thrill of a photograph. Let's take photos of LIVE fish for generations to come. Read the studies linked in the post. Here's another viewpoint; If the Goliath populations gather on wrecks this means their numbers are focused in a few-hundred-ft area of a very large ocean. They are seldom seen in number away from wreck sites.

GG are seldom seen away from wreck sites???? I would STRONGLY disagree with that statement. I have seen hundreds of GG on reefs.



To me this says 'tiny population'.

Please define "tiny" do you have a number or are you spouting silliness?

If they congregate on wrecks fishermen should AVOID those spots, instead they would park right on them for the thrill of a big catch even though it must be released or wasted for a single photo op. This sells sport charters & creates an easy way for a charter operation to exploit these fish to rake in bucks, thinking a released fish is fine. Here's another clue I can relate from personal experience; I knew divers that collected tropicals for aquariums, by hand. They needed to tie the fish bag on the anchor line to decompress for best chance of the fish surviving to the pet shop market. Possibly a bad comparison, tiny triggerfish to Goliath, but has anyone considered this possibility? Bringing a large fish quickly to the surface from deep water could be detrimental physiologically beyond the hook injury. There is a charter operation in Boca Grande FL that baits with small rays in order to attract a Goliath for the thrill of landing it. I won't mention a name so he cannot benefit by the publicity but is this not a 1st class example of exploitation for profit? It also alters the natural behavior tendencies of the Goliath, being opportunistic.

So is it your feeling that no fisherman should be able to use the wrecks that were placed with tax dollars and access to them should be limited to just divers who want to pet the groupers? Is that your intent or desire?


Let's face it people, all of this is symptomatic of the root and larger problem; there are simply too many humans on this planet ...yes? And we have become very good at massive consumption of all resources.


Perhaps I should add a silly comment like this;

When people take away all the food sharks usually eat the sharks have no choice but to eat more people... (I said it was silly)

I found most ALL your comments silly.

Final comment: We do not need to harvest or hunt/kill Goliath Grouper, period. Let them remain protected by moratorium on fishing.


So you want a moratorium on ALL fishing of all species, with all gear types, including catch and release for the south Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico?

xxxxxxx

 

[aue-mike]

Clearly some of us are not versed in our study of species. The Goliath are NOT rebounding tremendously. If so they would be seen throughout the South Atlantic & Caribbean. They are BARELY recovering & still ENDANGERED by OVERFISHING (i.e. poaching, accidental catch in nets, 'catch & release' where the fish still dies).

They are seldom seen in number away from wreck sites.

I am sorry, but this is factually incorrect. Goliath grouper have re-established throughout their continental U.S. range and you can see them on wrecks and ledges everywhere off the Atlantic coast of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and all the way through Hatteras, North Carolina. Also, throughout the Gulf of Mexico to the Texas/Mexico border, though Florida represents the focus of the population. Yes, they have not recovered throughout the Caribbean, primarily due to lack of regulatory measures. But there is no evidence that the continental U.S. population contributes to Caribbean stocks, likely due to the physical "isolation" presented by the Gulf Stream (hard for larvae to be transported up-current). Past assessments of the species have come to different conclusions on species recovery based on varying levels of conservatism - some runs concluded a 95% chance the species might recover by 2012, while others indicate recovery by 2017. Obviously, the species is not "struggling to recover from near extinction" or whatever, and they are definitely not endangered. Continually referencing them as such does not make it true.

And your assertion that they are seldom seen in numbers away from wreck sites is ludicrous. If there is overhead habitat, you will likely find goliath grouper.

I would recommend you become better versed in the study of the species at question Mx.Diver.

Cheers,
Mike

---------- Post Merged at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:23 PM ----------

---------- Post Merged on October 15th, 2012 at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous Post was on October 14th, 2012 at 11:00 PM ----------

Let's clarify a big difference between the diving off of Stuart/Fort Pierce, and off of Palm Beach......The size of the ecosystem is VASTLY LARGER in the Fort Pierce/Stuart area, than it is off of Palm Beach or Lauderdale or Miami..or the Keys.


If a spearfisherman spent most of his time spearing and diving Fort Pierce and Stuart, he might never see a problem with dwindling fish stocks, because the ecosystem there IS so enormous.

Look at the Amberjack issue at the deep wrecks....no one can dispute they are gone today from Palm beach to Miami. Maybe they still will show off of fort Pierce on one of the 25o foot deep wrecks, but I have not been there in a few years

Ahh, I get it now. We should rename the SOUTH ATLANTIC Fishery Management Council the PALM BEACH Fishery Management Council.
There are LOTS of AJs on the wrecks and reefs north of Palm Beach. Canaveral is teeming with them, and then there are all the thick donkey schools off the Carolinas and basically everywhere else I have been off the South East Coast (excluding South Florida). They are still abundant in the Gulf of Mexico too, but I feel their average size has been whittled down a fair bit due to fishing pressure.
Dan, I agree with you that the fish have been hammered off South Florida.

 

[danvolker]

Ahh, I get it now. We should rename the SOUTH ATLANTIC Fishery Management Council the PALM BEACH Fishery Management Council.
There are LOTS of AJs on the wrecks and reefs north of Palm Beach. Canaveral is teeming with them, and then there are all the thick donkey schools off the Carolinas and basically everywhere else I have been off the South East Coast (excluding South Florida). They are still abundant in the Gulf of Mexico too, but I feel their average size has been whittled down a fair bit due to fishing pressure.
Dan, I agree with you that the fish have been hammered off South Florida.

Mike, in North America, we have Alaska's Katmai National Park, we have Yellowstone, and we even have the Florida Everglades National Park, each representing a spectacular resource that needs to be preserved for the future...each could easily be destroyed forever if left to the protections ( or lack of) afforded the rest of the country.

Back to the Ocean, areas like Palm Beach, the Florida Keys, and Grand Cayman, represent something similar and special. Each could easily be lost forever, without suitable protections in place.
So far, all Palm Beach has had to protect it is the South Atlantic Fisheries Commission, and it has failed badly at this. On the failed responsibility side, there is the issue with how so many species of fish migrate huge distances, as with the grey grouper, and the Fishery needs to look at what the stocks are both in the beginging area of the migration, the areas along the way, and the final destination....and if too much hammering is occurring along the way, then restrictions need to be increased , along the entire route with this in mind.


The AJ's you find to the north of Palm Beach are in low poulation density areas, and they are not in areas where divers of the world could enjoy visiting to see them--as would be the case in Palm Beach or Broward.

Fort Pierce and Stuart diving will never be acceptable as a tourist destination for divers..the area would be horrible for a Yellowstone type reserve where the public gets to see what things used to be like, and to appreciate nature at it's best. It is and area far too large, too harsh, photographically miserable( poor viz) and not even remotely viable as a tourist diving destination. However, it exists today as a spectacular re-charge area, because it is so huge, and the human impact is so small per square foot.

It would be a horrific mis-management, for the Fishery to look at the health of the Fort Pierce area, and decide the lack of restriction this area does well with--- should extend to Palm Beach and the more southern reaches of the state.

You might say that the SAMF is not a Park Service, but a fishery management system. I think it needs to be both. So far, it has been NEITHER to Palm Beach, in any meaningful way.


As to the Goliaths and your comments to MxDiver....I think that discussion could be taken to a higher level , and you could assist with this, instead of taking so much pleasure at fanning the flames

First, lets deal with the wreck issue. For most of the year, the Goliaths are dispersed all over reefs along the coast of Florida, and this includes deep reefs only a few tech divers will ever see. Then, around August, we begin to get aggregations forming large masses of these fish around a handful of shipwrecks....wrecks that the fisherman happen to enjoy fishing at. These are Breeding populations, that have concentrated at these few sites, and as a fisheries biologist, you know that allowing the fisherman and spearos to go after these aggregation site fish, would have huge reproductive ramifications.
My suggestion, is that once the collective scientific agreement has formed--that the Goliaths have recovered ( lets say 10 years from now, for the sake of arguement) , that the known aggregation sites will from then on, need to remain protected DURING THE AGGREGATION MONTHS....Fisherman and spearos may have a shot at them ( personally I think they would be sh*t-Heads to do so) in the winter and early summer, while they are dispersed and the breeding population is not concentrated. We already know what happened in the 50's and 60's and 70's with the breeding populations being wiped out by a relatively small number of commercial fisherman and spearfisherman--easily able to target the huge herds durring aggregation periods.
Sites like the Zion and the Bonaire, and the Mispah and the Hole In the wall, will need to have protected status durring the aggregation months. While the fisherman may have contributed to the wrecks being there --to become fishing sites, the issue now is protection of a species, and it only means they miss out on fishing these sites for a few months.

 

[aue-mike]

Mike, in North America, yada yada yada...

So far, all Palm Beach has had to protect it is the South Atlantic Fisheries Commission, and it has failed badly at this.

Dan, you saw the smiley face, yes? That implied I was kidding around.
But I would point out you also have the FFWCC that could implement regulations in state waters, where much of the coral reef habitat and associated fish populations are found, and who also have representation on the SAFMC. Likewise with Palm Beach County, who could approach FFWCC, and on up the chain.
And I would point out, IMHO, that perhaps it may be difficult enough managing on a regional scale, let alone attempting it on a county by county scale. And IMHO, the regulations are complicated enough. Again, I agree that the fisheries in South Florida have been hammered. It's unfortunate. But it does not necessarily mean the stocks are in dire shape.
Should you be able to convince enough people to implement a large enough no-take MPA down there to make a difference, that would likely be very beneficial for the area. But good luck trying to get that going....

Fort Pierce and Stuart diving will never be acceptable as a tourist destination for divers..

I am glad areas outside of South Florida are not conducive in your opinion for tourist divers. More awesome wrecks and cool things for me to see without the hassle of tourists
And perhaps more tourist divers in South Florida might not be such a great thing in the long run. More pressure on local resources from tourists, while potentially good for the local economy, is likely not without it's issues. Protected areas here and abroad are already trying to cope with the sustainable tourism issue. IMHO there are already too many tourists there.

As to the Goliaths and your comments to MxDiver....I think that discussion could be taken to a higher level , and you could assist with this, instead of taking so much pleasure at fanning the flames

I am simply correcting incorrect statements and responding in a manner similar to that offered by Mx.Diver.

First, lets deal with the wreck issue. Yada yada yada....

First, Dan, I am pretty up to speed on goliath distribution and spawning behavior.
Second, you make it seem that simply because I am point out incorrect statements made by others about the species condition, etc., that somehow I am advocating harvest of the species. Please point out anywhere I have stated anything about the wisdom or lackthereof of such an action.

This has been fun, but I think I am going to step back from the conversation at this point...

Cheers,
Mike

 

[John from the burg]

I was not diving in the 50s but i dive a lot today and every single artificial has Jew fish, they even squeeze under the piles of concrete on the smaller reefs and if its a barge or tug, forget it, at least 5 on EVERY SINGLE DIVE. I can't think of one other fish, except cudas, that i see more. Outside the ARs Im pretty much limited to ledges and guess what, if the overhang is bigger then a couple feet at least 2 always, my favorite ledge has 3 permanent 300ish lbs monsters that love to take my hogs.

In my area, the Jew fish are thick and a danger to us spearfishers who keep as much distance from them as we can.

 

[danvolker]

I was not diving in the 50s but i dive a lot today and every single artificial has Jew fish, they even squeeze under the piles of concrete on the smaller reefs and if its a barge or tug, forget it, at least 5 on EVERY SINGLE DIVE. I can't think of one other fish, except cudas, that i see more. Outside the ARs Im pretty much limited to ledges and guess what, if the overhang is bigger then a couple feet at least 2 always, my favorite ledge has 3 permanent 300ish lbs monsters that love to take my hogs.

In my area, the Jew fish are thick and a danger to us spearfishers who keep as much distance from them as we can.

Obviously you are talking about an area outside of the South Florida area.....As Mike said, outside of the Palm Beach Fisheries Management Zone ( Thanks Mike ! )

So whether you are in Jax or Fort Pierce, or whereever, and you are finding the Jewfish to be scary, I assume this is added to the list you have of all the other creatures you need to watch on each dive.....

You know John, the ocean is a very dangerous place, and everything down there is out to eat you. I think you and your friends need powerheads to protect yourself from the marauding Jacks, and the evil blue Parrotfish.
I can see you are the kind of spearfisherman, that has realized that with everything trying to eat him, that you should be shooting everything, and asking questions later.
Lots of luck with this, and might I suggest that you will find few members of Scubaboard sympathetic to your plight....most here do not consider the jacks or parrotfish particulary dangerous, and as to the jewfish, most will pet them and enjoy hanging out with them..... If you want others sympathetic to your fears, there are many with such fears posting on spearboard, and they will be far more likely to agree with you about killing any marine life you are afraid of.

 

[John from the burg]

Where did i say i was afraid? I said they are a danger to people who are just down there to get some fish and enjoy a little underwater sport. If you wana pet them or kiss them or whatever then that's your thing and more power to ya, i want dinner, that's my thing. Your petty insults toward me purely because i don't share your narrow view only shows your true colors, is no one allowed to have a different opinion? Have you ever had 200 lbs of fish swallow your entire arm? Have you ever broken a second stage off your face after a jf slapped you going after your fish? Hell no you haven't because you have never been there doing what i do where i do it. Im not scared of any fish, if any man oyr beast tries to kill me Im going to kill it first without hesitation, so would you no matter what you say on the internet.

You wana talk about fear? Come do a moonlight hunt with me out of clearwater, you can play tug of war with 8 foot bull sharks and we'll see who is afraid and who comes up with fish.

I only logged on to give my opinion on the subject, my point was they are everywhere but you skipped that and tried to insult me w your ignorance. You failed.

 

[danvolker]

Where did i say i was afraid? I said they are a danger to people who are just down there to get some fish and enjoy a little underwater sport. If you wana pet them or kiss them or whatever then that's your thing and more power to ya, i want dinner, that's my thing. Your petty insults toward me purely because i don't share your narrow view only shows your true colors, is no one allowed to have a different opinion? Have you ever had 200 lbs of fish swallow your entire arm? Have you ever broken a second stage off your face after a jf slapped you going after your fish? Hell no you haven't because you have never been there doing what i do where i do it. Im not scared of any fish, if any man oyr beast tries to kill me Im going to kill it first without hesitation, so would you no matter what you say on the internet.

You wana talk about fear? Come do a moonlight hunt with me out of clearwater, you can play tug of war with 8 foot bull sharks and we'll see who is afraid and who comes up with fish.

I only logged on to give my opinion on the subject, my point was they are everywhere but you skipped that and tried to insult me w your ignorance. You failed.

Like I said John, the Ocean is a dangerous place. Good luck shooting anything that you feel might threaten you.
Out of curiousity, are you one of the guys with the machete size dive knives strapped to your calf, James Bons style ? You can never be too careful, you know

 

[John from the burg]

Your hopeless.

I carry one 3 inch blade and medical shears, knifes are not for defense, they are safety equipment. If i wanted to kill something i would use one of my custom loaded 357 mag powerheads your so fond of, or my 48 inch triple band speargun with the line cut as either of those would be much more effective the next time Im frozen with fear because a jf is around.

Driving is a danger but i still managed over 40,000 miles last year, i avoid jf not because Im afraid but because i want to keep my fish. Danger is part of life, mitigating said danger is the trick.

How about you tell me why my area is packed full of your endangered fish instead of throwing petty nonsensical bull **** my way.

 

[danvolker]

Your hopeless.

I carry one 3 inch blade and medical shears, knifes are not for defense, they are safety equipment. If i wanted to kill something i would use one of my custom loaded 357 mag powerheads your so fond of, or my 48 inch triple band speargun with the line cut as either of those would be much more effective the next time Im frozen with fear because a jf is around.

Driving is a danger but i still managed over 40,000 miles last year, i avoid jf not because Im afraid but because i want to keep my fish. Danger is part of life, mitigating said danger is the trick.

How about you tell me why my area is packed full of your endangered fish instead of throwing petty nonsensical bull **** my way.

John, it is obvious to all, that you only showed up on this thread to annoy people that enjoy diving with Goliaths.
Give me a reason "why" I should be kind to you, or not make you the butt of some jokes????

As to the prevalence of these fish off of the Gulf coast area you dive , I think AUE Mike is the guy to really answer that....but my "guess" is that the potential diving or fishing sites off of Clearwater, Tampa, St Pete are spread out over an enormous area....I dove and spearfished this area myself when going to USF in the late 70's. I found the area about the ulgliest diving I have ever been in, but there were some "structures" that would have prolific populations of fish on them--and great for spearfishing. With the Goliaths as spread out as they are there, and fewer "known" sites of spawning, the fish are able to sustain large populations better than in Palm Beach, where they aggregate in places the fisherman are well aware of, and where concentrations during spawnings can be wiped out quickly by a few spearfisherman like yourself... Your attitude now, and what you are saying, is exactly what the old timers of Frank Hammett's day would say about the need to deal with the jewfish problem....And back in the 60's, you might have been one of the "heroes" making the reefs safer for other spearfisherman, and more enjoyable for the hook and line fisherman. Maybe you want to be this kind of "Heroe" today, but it is a little more complicated this time around