Back-Inflated and Wings

[carolrose]

I travel a fair amount and carry a ton of gear. The convenience of not having to wear a weight belt that's 2 feet too long, or put pockets on my rig, or any other extraneous bs is well worth the extra couple of pounds in my luggage. After all, my dive trips are the highlight of my diving year, so why would I want to use an inferior solution to what I use every weekend at home for blah dives in the quarry?

 

[chucksaul]

Ok so you are where I was this time last year but I had about 50 dives in with a jacket-style BCD.

I did my homework, went to my LDS and bought the whole kit and kaboddle... Transpac, SS BP, both sizes of weight pockets, extra clips, etc etc

What I learned is the following... you can, but dont want to put a BP on the Transpac... If you want a SSBP then get a Hog Harness or some such...

Dont get the weight pockets... all of this stuff dangles, gets tangled with your crotch stap and is generally a PITA... use a weight belt... It might be heavy at first but the more you dive the less weight you will need...

Get one large thigh bag, the one with the elastic strap that goes around your leg... Pack carefully...

I am constantly arranging and rearranging and messin with my configuration... I guess that is why I like the Transpac so much...

Just my 2cents

Charlie

 

[SlvrDragon50]

Sounds good chuck..

I would go to my LDS but mine is Scubapro crazy!

 

[RAWalker]

Many / (most?) travel destinations have only block weight available. Are you going to bring the lead shot with you? If soft weights are available are you planning to purchase them, cut them open and pour the lead shot into the sausage? What do you do when you travel home or to the next stop on your trip? Repeat as necessary? That doesn't seem to versatile, cost effective, or even responsible.

Your argument is versatility. What's more versatile than a SS plate that you can use at home and when traveling?

Look at the typical warm water rig, 3mm wetsuit + an al 80. The wet suit is about +4 lbs buoyant, and the empty 80 is about +4. That means you need about 8 lbs of ballast. A SS plate and harness is about -6 and reg is about -2. Bingo! Many divers use nothing but the plate, harness and reg for ballast in warm water.

The advantages of a SS plate in cold water should be pretty obvious.

Why have lightweight plates at all? Big steel doubles in warm fresh water is one good reason.

Travel to places that require cutting your tooth brush in half is another.

Most people don't see either extreme. That leaves SS plates as a better choice for most, even those that travel a bit.

Tobin

If you listen to the news or read the papers or even some other thread you see we are at the point of cutting our toothbrush in half!

I could fill the thing with fishing weights or gravel it really doesn't matter if it fits within it, weighs and sinks. It really isn't the problem you're making it out to be.

The advantage of the SS plate is non existing if you don't need the weight and I've shown that you don't need to travel with it.

I have to question why DSS sells Kydex plates but not Aluminum?
Could it be that Aluminum's sharp edges would be a problem for the DSS design?
Does this required a more expensive plate be used when lowering weight is a consideration?
Is this why you'd rather sell 2 backplates when 1 can be substituted effectively using other brands and weighting options like I have presented at the same time saving the owner a few bucks?

Maybe I'm just well too aware of your products and they don't suit my needs! Or maybe I don't find them as cost effective as others!

So what's more versatile than the SS plate an Aluminum one that weight can be added to or removed as needed allowing the owner to have 1 plate for freshwater, saltwater, singles, doubles, wetsuit or dry.

 

[cool_hardware52]

If you listen to the news or read the papers or even some other thread you see we are at the point of cutting our toothbrush in half!

I'm not. Most divers aren't either. Most active divers drive to their local dive sites and leave the gram scale at home. Switching to a BP&W from a jacket usually results in weight savings even when using a SS plate.

I could fill the thing with fishing weights or gravel it really doesn't matter if it fits within it, weighs and sinks.

Right. Very practical. Can you really be suggesting that somebody at their dive resort source 4 lbs of lead fishing weights?

You cannot be serious. Hard to imagine a more expensive way to buy lead.

And of course you will need to buy these again at every stop on your trip.

Gravel? You must be kidding. Lead has a specific gravity of ~11.3 Granite has a specific gravity of ~2.8 and Silica is about 2.7. Using gravel instead of in a "4 lbs sausage" would provide about 1 lbs of ballast.

Hummm I wonder why dive weights are made of lead and not little bags of gravel?

The advantage of the SS plate is non existing if you don't need the weight and I've shown that you don't need to travel with it.

No you haven't.

I have to question why DSS sells Kydex plates but not Aluminum?

Simple. Kydex plates are both lighter out of the water and and less negative in the water than al plates. Kydex plate are slightly flexible too, which can be an advantage with thin suits.

Could it be that Aluminum's sharp edges would be a problem for the DSS design?

?? Last time I check aluminum can be chamfered, more easily than SS BTW.

Does this required a more expensive plate be used when lowering weight is a consideration?

If you have a point here I missed it.

Is this why you'd rather sell 2 backplates when 1 can be substituted effectively using other brands and weighting options like I have presented at the same time saving the owner a few bucks?

Where have I ever said all divers need two plates? Please show me.

Again you are accusing me of trying to take advantage of my customers, again with no evidence to support it.

Most are better served with one, and that one in my experience, having helped outfit 1000's of divers with BP&W's, is a SS plate.

I'm sorry if that fact does not fit with you grand conspiracy theory that all scuba manufacturers exist only to screw divers. I make of point, everyday, to try and help divers get what they need, at the lowest cost possible.

Find me one DSS customer who will refute that statement.

Maybe I'm just well too aware of your products and they don't suit my needs! Or maybe I don't find them as cost effective as others!

Well which is it? Can you be specific?

So what's more versatile than the SS plate an Aluminum one that weight can be added to or removed as needed allowing the owner to have 1 plate for freshwater, saltwater, singles, doubles, wetsuit or dry.

Easy. A SS plate that is very likely appropriate for diving at home, and on vacation. Do you need me to repeat the math for you again?

Lightweight plates have a place, as I noted before, big steel doubles with thin exposure suits often require a lightweight plate.

This is not something most new to BP&W divers will be doing.

Lightweight plates may be worth considering for exotic travel, where every ounce counts.

For the vast majority of other conditions and configurations the added ballast provided by a SS plate is a benefit. vs added weight pockets, sausage weights, camband weights, ankle weights, etc.etc.etc.

Tobin

 

[In10se]

Us SPOREs are learning something from a popcorn thread. That doesn't normally happen. Most of these popcorn threads are all ego and no info. This one ... we're learning from.

 

[rongoodman]

The last couple of trips I've been on, I was able to fit not only my SS plate, but the weighted STA, and still be under 50# for my checked bag. Granted, I'm not flying with a housing and strobes for my SLR yet... I'm having trouble seeing the problem with 3-4 lbs extra.

 

[stablgr]

When I calculated the DSS system, it was over 500 for a hogarthian type. I like to buy top of the line stuff so I will not hve to replace it, and for a full TransPac system, it would be less than 500

You may want to take a look at a set up from Oxycheq. I got a REALLY good deal from ScubaToys on an OxyCheq st.stl. travel plate, 30 lb Mach V wing (one of the most streamlined on the market) and their deluxe harness. It's comfortable, compact, tough as nails and doesn't need an STA. I love it.

Just another option for you to consider, and Joe and Larry at ST are great to deal with.

 

[RAWalker]

A SS plate that is very likely appropriate for diving at home, and on vacation. Do you need me to repeat the math for you again?

Lightweight plates have a place, as I noted before, big steel doubles with thin exposure suits often require a lightweight plate.

This is not something most new to BP&W divers will be doing.

Lightweight plates may be worth considering for exotic travel, where every ounce counts.

For the vast majority of other conditions and configurations the added ballast provided by a SS plate is a benefit. vs added weight pockets, sausage weights, camband weights, ankle weights, etc.etc.etc.

Tobin

The point is you can add ballast to the lighter plate but you can't subtract it from the SS plate!
Using the sausage weight can bring the lighter plate to the same weight as the SS plate with no drawbacks. It will perform exactly the same.
Using the Aluminum plate allows you to do so at a lower cost than Kydex or SS
I think today the vast majority of divers dive multiple conditions and can use the ability to shed weight when traveling. At home it may not be needed or advantagious but it isn't gonna hurt anything either.
After all the next step for the airlines is to charge like FedEx based on both weight and size. So start shortening your toothbrush.

 

[cool_hardware52]

The point is you can add ballast to the lighter plate but you can't subtract it from the SS plate!

I see you agree that a heavier plate is an advantage. It seems now your argument centers on how best to achieve this.

The sausage weight works only if you can find loose lead shot at your destination. Finding and purchasing loose lead shot at each dive site is problematic, and expensive.
A quick online check reveals that fishing weight sell for about a 1 dollar / ounce.
I've already debunked your suggestion to use gravel.

Using the sausage weight can bring the lighter plate to the same weight as the SS plate with no drawbacks.

The sausage weight needs to be secured to the back plate. Not a problem if you use a STA, but if you prefer not to use a STA, and many prefer exactly that, now you need some means of attaching the sausage. If you bolt it on the bolts will interfere with the direct mounting, and likely lead to tank rock.

If you choose to use the STA, you have to bring that with you too and you have again lost some of the massive, earth shattering, make or break the dive trip weight savings between a light weight and SS plate (~3 lbs.)

The sausage may also interfere with cambands that pass through the plate.

The loose lead shot required to fill the sausage needs to be purchased, over and over and over again if you are traveling.

Stainless Steel plates outsell al or other lightweight plates simply because they are a better solution for most divers.

My typical customer dives at home in moderate to cold water and travels ocassionally to warm destinations.

In most cases a single (that's one, not two )SS plate, and a single (again, one not two) wing can be selected that's a reasonable compromise for both.

Wings need to be sized for the most buoyant suit, and plate material is a function of required ballast, really pretty simple once you understand the process.

Look at a typical So Cal diver in a full 7mm wetsuit using a HP100 at home. If their suit is +22 lbs., They need a SS plate and Harness (~6 lbs) regulator (~2 lbs), empty tank (~2lbs) and 12 lbs pounds in a weight belt. If they opt to use the bolt on weight we offer (which can be used only with our SS plates) they end up with about 4 lbs in a belt. 4 lbs belts are easily managed.

Their rig will be about -18 with a full tank. If the rig is -18 and the suit can loose ~22 then a 26 lbs wing is a reasonable choice.

In warm water this same diver using a 3mm wetsuit and a buoyant al 80 will need about 8 lbs of ballast. The (same plate BTW, as in the one the diver already owns and is already diving at home) SS Plate and harness is -6 and the reg is -2. The plate and harness is all they need. The one wing they already own is larger than they need for warm water, but not so large as to be a significant problem.

Our diver, with the SS plate, will be in the water enjoying the exotic local diving while your diver is scurrying around trying to stuff 40 cu inches of gravel into a 10 cu inch sausage, after spending 1/2 a day discovering there is no loose lead shot available to purchase.

Simple is almost always better. Why take a BP&W and festoon it with STA's and bolts and washers and a sausages etc.?

To save a pound or two for travel? Most correctly see this as just plain silly.

Tobin