Big Mistake

[SeaJay]

Nanook once bubbled...
you swimming against that 6 kt current? You are superman.

Actually, if you'd asked me nicely, I'd have told you that I was holding onto a line. Nobody swims at 6 knots.

But what's it to ya, anyway? Never mind... It's just a rhetorical question.

You don't just bump the ceiling. You either do your stop correctly or you don't.

Aw, you're just sore from the last time you spouted off.

For every post you make, continuing to try and justify your errors, instead of just admitting to the mistake

Uhhhhh... Hello? Did you see the title of this thread? I believe that the volunteering of this information in the first place was the admission of the mistake.

Get more training.

Repeat after me... "It is my opinion that you need more training." Bold words coming from someone who hides their identity (and own lack of training) with double identities.

Sockpuppets aren't allowed on Scubaboard.

 

[Charlie99]

biscuit7 once bubbled...
..besides one minor mention I haven't seen anyone really nail the point that computer NDL limits are not meant to be pushed!! .... I have an Aeris computer which I know is more liberal, Rachel

I ran the depths/times SeaJay gave through the Dataplus simulator, which is probably the same deco model as your Aeris. It was down to 2 min NDL at 75' on the first dive, and either deco or within 1 minute on the 2nd.

It's OK to push NDL limits or exceed them, provided that you have enough gas to properly decompress --- which wasn't done in this case. As you can see from the tissue sat charts, his medium tissues were still heavily loaded, even after his extended safety stop.

Question 1. for SeaJay: why didn't you just share air for a while? That would have given you a slight additional deco edge since your buddy had 32%, and that would have left a bit more gas on your back to handle any problems while getting onto the boat.

Question 2. Quite a few posts back, you made reference to 18 minutes of deco obligation while passing 45'. Was this really deco time, or was this a calculated "time to ascend" using the ultra slow ascent rate that you had at the time?

Question 3. On the jpg images, the check box "tissue pressures invalid" is checked. Is that something you entered? Is that Suunto saying that the profile made their model invalid?

Charlie

 

[Spectre]

SeaJay once bubbled...
There's also two upside-down pink triangles on my graph... One at 32 minutes and the other at 38 minutes. According to the Suunto help file, an upside-down, pink triangle means, "The dive ascended above the decompression ceiling during this interval."

I'm not sure where this whole sockpuppet accusation came from; but regardless of that, nanook is making some good points.

And here he has another good point. A ceiling is just that... a ceiling. Would you just brush off exceeding an MOD as not a big deal? Why would you brush off breaching a ceiling as no big deal?

Suunto algorithms are going to give you ceilings, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to stop there. If you're going to ride your computer through deco, you can ride it at 20 feet and be a little better off with the wave action.

 

[Spectre]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Question 3. On the jpg images, the check box "tissue pressures invalid" is checked. Is that something you entered? Is that Suunto saying that the profile made their model invalid?

No... it comes up like that until you have the dive manager actually recalculate the dive series. If you select a dive, and graph it, you will see a 'calc' button that either has a red or a green indicator on it. If it's red, then that dive will show 'tissue pressures invalid'. If you tell the dive manager to recalcuate it, the indicator will go green and the dives in that series will no longer have that invalid checkbox on it.

 

[Pez de Diablo]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
I ran the depths/times SeaJay gave through the Dataplus simulator, which is probably the same deco model as your Aeris. It was down to 2 min NDL at 75' on the first dive, and either deco or within 1 minute on the 2nd.

No they aren't.

Spectre once bubbled...
Suunto algorithms are going to give you ceilings, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to stop there. If you're going to ride your computer through deco, you can ride it at 20 feet and be a little better off with the wave action.[/B]

So true, most computers show a ceiling of 10 feet, but will credit you even at 20 feet though very slightly slower.

 

[MikeS]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Well, let me be clear on this... This was my fault. We've figured out that there were four possible solutions to this problem of overstaying my NDL. So no, I don't blame this on my computer.

Who or what was at fault is moot to the point that I was trying to make. Not much can be gained from the blame game.

The only point I was trying to make is that the information provided does not support the hypothesis that computers are bad and should only be used in gauge mode as you somewhat implied.

SeaJay once bubbled...
It's not the computer's fault... But it's something to be aware of. "Three minutes" means, "Three minutes to be above the floor," not "three minutes to turn." There is a huge difference, and one that was not made clear in the manual.

If that is in fact the case, it is certainly something that anyone using the computer should be aware of. Personally, I never observed a “floor” while I still had NDL time remaining. My understanding is the “floor” only comes into plan once computer has gone into deco mode. I confirmed that this is the case with the Cobra demo on the Suunto website.

Mike

 

[Charlie99]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...
No they aren't.

I stand by my statement that the Aeris computers and the Oceanic DataPlus computers use the same model --- both are Dr Deco's M-values, same as PADI RDP. I didn't say that they were the same as Suunto's, which is another haldanean based model, with hacks to fudge in a bit of RGBM-like behavior.

Charlie

 

[Uncle Pug]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Well, that may be true, but I've had SACs at nearly 1.5... In a 6 knot current and while working like a madman.

Does that mean that I should plan my dives around a SAC of 1.5?

...why are you trying so hard to resist good advice by throwing out exagerations?

And why did you even bother to start this thread when all you seem to want to do is debate the insight offered by others?

I'm starting to agree with Waterlover... you are just trolling with this thread... but that is OK... the rest of us have been able to put it to good use and even your self-defense posture has been instructive.

6 kt current.

 

[Pez de Diablo]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
I stand by my statement that the Aeris computers and the Oceanic DataPlus computers use the same model --- both are Dr Deco's M-values, same as PADI RDP. I didn't say that they were the same as Suunto's, which is another haldanean based model, with hacks to fudge in a bit of RGBM-like behavior.

Charlie

Duh,

My Bad.

Note to self - Aeris is not Suunto. D

Darn I know that.

Sorry.

 

[GearHead]

First: 6 knot current?

SeaJay, I recommend you go to dictionary.com and look into the definition of the word "Hyperbole".

Second, judging by this thread and past ones, it sounds like a number of people don't completely understand how the Suunto computers use the RGBM deco algorithm, and how to properly follow the computer's advice.

Let me preface this by saying, I'm just a Suunto CPU user like a lot of others, and the following is what I've learned from reading the manual and using my CPUs (Mosquito and Vytec). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Suunto CPUs enter "deco mode" when one or more of your "tissue compartments" is saturated with Nitrogen in excess of 100% (theoretically). When this happens, and the CPU gives you a "ceiling", it's not saying "get to the ceiling depth asap and stay there until I say you're out of deco", it's saying "under no circumstance should you ascend above that depth until you've done more off-gassing and I say you are out of deco". A lot of important off-gassing happens below 10' and if you run some simulations using your CPU or Suunto Dive Manager software for a deco dive, you'll see that you can exit deco mode by spending time well below 10' and reducing the nitrogen load on the oversaturated compartments.

To clarify: At any point during a dive, if you go into deco but subsequently ascend and get the particular tissue compartment(s) below 100% saturation, the CPU will go back into regular dive mode, and show you an NDL (no deco limit) instead of the ASC indicator. In fact, depending on your level of saturation, during a simulation, you'll see that the ceiling changes depths based on how saturated you are (deeper ceilings for more saturation).

I wonder how many divers were unintentionally bent because they found that they accidentally entered deco and shot up too fast to "get to the ceiling". And before you get defensive, SeaJay, I'm not referring to you regarding ascending too fast, because you apparently didn't. But I do assert that you don't understand the "ceiling" concept based on your actions.