BoyaControlncy

[Maria25]

Oh my...
1. Not even wearing a wet suit yet....Sounds like when I do though the 7# weights may be sufficient. ?
2. I feel really ignorant about equipment. I am not sure whether the tank is steel or otherwise.
3. I am really struggling with the instructor ratio: My intent is to learn how to dive safely , the idea with dealing with the politics of it makes me quesey. I will find out what the other two guys are; I do see that they are trying. The instructors make eye contact in class a lot and short of rolling their eyes I see how frustrated they seem to be at times. I think they expected a bit of attrition .
4. Am I 'allowed" to go to the pool (with my buddy) , with my gear and practice when not in class. Yes I know I am an adult, but the gear is part of the rental and while I signed my name away I am not sure I signed something that said no no regarding that. While not 100% of a rule girl (I tend to break a few ) I really really am taking this seriously.
5. Just to let you know this is the first ever forum I have ever written on or even read verbatum. You guys are wonderful!
6. Hey diverdown- how did you know I was from Seattle ?!

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

Oh my...
1. Not even wearing a wet suit yet....Sounds like when I do though the 7# weights may be sufficient. ?
2. I feel really ignorant about equipment. I am not sure whether the tank is steel or otherwise.
3. I am really struggling with the instructor ratio: My intent is to learn how to dive safely , the idea with dealing with the politics of it makes me quesey. I will find out what the other two guys are; I do see that they are trying. The instructors make eye contact in class a lot and short of rolling their eyes I see how frustrated they seem to be at times. I think they expected a bit of attrition .
4. Am I 'allowed" to go to the pool (with my buddy) , with my gear and practice when not in class. Yes I know I am an adult, but the gear is part of the rental and while I signed my name away I am not sure I signed something that said no no regarding that. While not 100% of a rule girl (I tend to break a few ) I really really am taking this seriously.
5. Just to let you know this is the first ever forum I have ever written on or even read verbatum. You guys are wonderful!
6. Hey diverdown- how did you know I was from Seattle ?!

You can't go with a buddy unless that buddy is an instuctor...talk with them about your concerns... you paid money for this

 

[mark43]

Maria,
It can take some time to get bounancy correct, try to relax slow down your breathing. This is supposed to be fun. See Try to get ahold of your instructor, meet at your dive shop or training center. Explain your concerns, See if they could provide A Dive Master during the next session to work with you, And /or Ask for a private pool session.

What ever you do, don't give up. I have seen advanced student still have problems with bounancy. Also see if you can veiw a PADI video called Peak Performance Bounancy it may give you some tips.

mark

 

[Sideband]

The standard mantra is "no one can tell you what weight you need" and this is, philosophically true but ignores the fact that the new diver in a class of 12 people isn't afforded the luxury of trying out multiple weighting configurations and doing pre- and post-dive buoyancy checks for each. they have to start out with some idea of what their weight requirement is from the beginning. For example, if she starts out with 14 pounds and only needs four, and you do buoyancy checks at 2 pound intervals, they would have to do six weight exchanges and six buoyancy checks. If they did that for every student, it would take most of the pool time for a morning just for that. Is there something wrong with guessimating weight based on standard formulas at least as a guide?

Using the standard method it is possible to guage how much weight needs to be changed by simply by looking where they float at.
Chin lvl: add 6lbs
mouth lvl: add 4 lbs
nose lvl: add 2 lbs
forehead: drop 2 lbs
top of head: drop 4 lbs
sinks totally: drop 6 lbs
Using this guage you can narrow down the correct weight in about 2 tries. No need to use 2 lb increments
JBD's method being the best for figuring weight needed, this does work too.

And does everyone agree with Mike's belief that we should not exhaust our bcs fully when submerging. Isn't that what we're taught, or am I mistaken? First, this seems unreasonable for new divers to accomplish. Second, the PADI definition of a proper buoyancy is that the diver, with an exhausted bc, should float at eye level with a lungful of air and descend SLOWLY with exhalation. If someone is sinking so fast that they need air in their bc even while descending to keep from plummeting to the bottom, they may be overweighted. Granted, as Mike says, you will always be a few pounds heavier at the beginning of the dive, but I still think it makes more sense (and is simpler) to have new divers dump their bcs completely. I just pull the shoulder dump on my classic bc and descend, then hit the inflator if needed as I near depth... is this wrong technique?

This is for checking weighting with an empty tank. At the beginning of a dive you will not need to fully dump the BC. You should always remain very close to neutral. To decend you only need to get slightly negative and should add small amounts of air to the BC as you decend to maintain that state. In cold water you risk a first stage freeze by waiting until you get to the bottom and adding all the air you need.

It may be simpler to have them do many things but that doesn't make it the correct way to teach. It is also easier to overweight them and plaster their butts to the bottom.

Joe

 

[ehuber]

Yes, Maria, don't get frustrated to the point that this isn't fun...

It sounds as if your problem is two-pronged:

1) Your instructor has not done an adequate job preparing for the numbers and giving you adequate time to receive assistance in weight distribution, etc. If you have that many students, the instructor MUST provide ample time for EVERYONE or they are just out for a buck. A polite conversation on this subject should solve that problem.

2) Your inexperience/impatience with the gear and buoyancy is likely causing you to rush your adjustments. Slooowww down, relax, breathe deeply and slowly, take your time, enjoy the scenery, and patiently tinker with neutral buoyancy. The slower the better. If you watch good divers, they rarely do anything quickly in the water.

Remember, use your BC for gross buoyancy control. Use your lung capacity for fine buoyancy control. This will prevent over-compensation which would result in the yo-yo effect you complained about. Small adjustments to the BC and slow, deep breaths will provide you a nice, relaxed method for gaining confidence in your buoyancy.

Once you feel more confident with your buoyancy, trim, and weight issues you will enjoy this much, much more.

If you continue having the problem of flipping over on your back, ask your instructor about possibly using a weight-integrated BC or reconfiguring your weight distribution. Also, do you feel as though you are either foot or head heavy? Trying a lighter or heavier fin may help solve some trim issues...

 

[Sideband]

If you continue having the problem of flipping over on your back, ask your instructor about possibly using a weight-integrated BC or reconfiguring your weight distribution. Also, do you feel as though you are either foot or head heavy? Trying a lighter or heavier fin may help solve some trim issues...

Weight distribution and tank height are much better solutions than changing fins for better trim. You would need different fins for a baithing suit, shorty, full suit and dry suit.
If you tend to go turtle and roll to your back then placing your weights further forward on the belt and less on the hips can help. If you are head heavy lower the tank in the BC. If you are head light, raise the tank or add a bit of weight near the tank neck.
Joe

 

[wallacm]

My best advice is to lay on the bottom of the pool and just give a shot of air using the inflator. When i get achieve neutral buoyancy i only give small shots of air. After a while you learn how many shots you need, but while you are figuring it out, give on small shot and wait a couple of seconds.

It takes a couple of seconds for the air to lift you, so after each shot wait a second or two.

as far as the instructors, definetly tell the owner of the shop.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

Using the standard method it is possible to guage how much weight needs to be changed by simply by looking where they float at.
Chin lvl: add 6lbs
mouth lvl: add 4 lbs
nose lvl: add 2 lbs
forehead: drop 2 lbs
top of head: drop 4 lbs
sinks totally: drop 6 lbs
Using this guage you can narrow down the correct weight in about 2 tries. No need to use 2 lb increments
JBD's method being the best for figuring weight needed, this does work too.


This is for checking weighting with an empty tank. At the beginning of a dive you will not need to fully dump the BC. You should always remain very close to neutral. To decend you only need to get slightly negative and should add small amounts of air to the BC as you decend to maintain that state. In cold water you risk a first stage freeze by waiting until you get to the bottom and adding all the air you need.

It may be simpler to have them do many things but that doesn't make it the correct way to teach. It is also easier to overweight them and plaster their butts to the bottom.

Joe

From the PADI AOW manual regarding buoyancy checks:"Go to water too deep to stand in and completely deflate your BCD. If you are using a dry suit, open the automatic exhaust all the way." However, they later state, as noted, that this should be done with an empty cylinder and, since they consider this impractical, they advise that a buoyancy check be done with a full cylinder and then, when satisified that the weight is correct, then add five more pounds to compensate for gas loss.

What you are saying, and it seems reasonable, is that the complete dump is for an empty cylinder. If we "slowly descend" with a complete air dump and with a full tank --- and then add 5 more pounds --- we will not slowly descend anymore, but quickly descend.

This could be made clearer in the manual and in how it's taught. It should add that, after a full tank buoyancy check, add 5 pounds for gas loss. However, after adding the extra weight, GRADUALLY release air from your bc until you begin to descend slowly, then stop venting. The manual could caution against completely exhausting the bc after the additional weight is added.

I guess the confusion is that the instructions for buoyancy checks applies ONLY to empty tank checks. Once the final weight for the dive is achieved, a rapid air dump is not necessary.

When I go to Aruba in two weeks I will try venting more slowly and see how it affects my descent. Interesting...

 

[Sideband]

From the PADI AOW manual regarding buoyancy checks:"Go to water too deep to stand in and completely deflate your BCD. If you are using a dry suit, open the automatic exhaust all the way." However, they later state, as noted, that this should be done with an empty cylinder and, since they consider this impractical, they advise that a buoyancy check be done with a full cylinder and then, when satisified that the weight is correct, then add five more pounds to compensate for gas loss.

Sounds right to me. I only see them saying to perform the buoyancy check with an empty BC. I don't see any mention of doing actual descents by totally dumping the BC.

What you are saying, and it seems reasonable, is that the complete dump is for an empty cylinder. If we "slowly descend" with a complete air dump and with a full tank --- and then add 5 more pounds --- we will not slowly descend anymore, but quickly descend.

Exactly.

This could be made clearer in the manual and in how it's taught. It should add that, after a full tank buoyancy check, add 5 pounds for gas loss. However, after adding the extra weight, GRADUALLY release air from your bc until you begin to descend slowly, then stop venting. The manual could caution against completely exhausting the bc after the additional weight is added.

Being NAUI, PADI doesn't listen to me very often.

I guess the confusion is that the instructions for buoyancy checks applies ONLY to empty tank checks. Once the final weight for the dive is achieved, a rapid air dump is not necessary.

Again, there's a difference in a buoyancy check and actual descent.

When I go to Aruba in two weeks I will try venting more slowly and see how it affects my descent. Interesting...

I think you will find that you are more in control. You will be able to stop at any point just by taking a deeper breath. Same type of thing on ascent. Dump small amounts as you ascend to remain neutral.

Joe

 

[im_a_piranha]

Hi Maria So having some trouble with buoyancy huh? Well, welcome to the world of scuba diving! I'm not making fun, but really, I just want you to know that a lot of what you're feeling is very normal for a beginner. If you try to search for my posts here, I had a similar problem with yours...and 11 more dives later, I feel a lot better. One thing I can assure you is that it will only get easier especially if you are really willing to work on them (and it sounds like you do!)

Your class does sound like it is too big. Try and talk to your instructors to maybe have a smaller group each time. That's what happened to my class, and yes, I was put in a smaller group. I was so afraid I wasn't giong to get certified because I really sucked my first few dives Poor me. Make sure you try and voice your concerns because first things first, your safety is most important. Besides, diving should be a great experience. It will only get easier..

It sounds to me like you are really overweighted, just like I was Instructors do this for 2 reasons: 1) since your class is too big, they don't have time to work with you to get you properly weighted which is bad bad bad. But as you continue with diving and as you get more comfortable with it, you will tend to relax more, get comfortable,, and be able to fully exhale and empty your lungs, which then will make descending easier! I used to get that a lot (and I probably still do because I still get nervous during the first few minutes of the dive. Anyway, as you are more comfortable, you won't need so much weight anymore and can start trimming it down. Once you get underwater, practice your fin pivot and try to remember how much you have to inflate your BCD each time. Remember, while you do this, take full inhalations and exhalations, just like a normal breathe....until you get neutral Just keep practicing! Oh, reason #2 that they overweight you is because they want you guys to stay underwater when doing your drills as people tend to shoot up! (I tend to believe this...since it was done to me too..) I know it's hard, but remember, as you dive more, it only gets better. And did I mention, it gets easier each time?

I know everything I said here are things other people have said before, but I thought I'd post anyway to let you know that I had a lot of troubles before too, but I do enjoy it a whole lot more now! Diving is so much fun and once you get certified, just keep diving. You have the right attitude about it and just keep it up! Try to find some local mentors/clubs like I have (yes, HBDiveGirl and Glycerin are the best ) to keep diving with you. As you feel more at ease, relax, feel comfortable, you won't hit the inflator/deflator button so much anymore Buoyancy is not an easy thing to learn but as long as you keep at it, you will keep improving. I only have 16 dives and I have a LONG ways to go, but you know what, it just gets easier each time

Good luck and always dive safely! Let us know how it goes!

Angelie