British Expert Bashes Padi

[victor]

I think that one of the problems is that an OW certificate qualifies you to dive in the benign conditions of Bonaire and the high current, cold water, low visibility conditions off Scapa Flow. Diving in the Caribbean is not like diving in the great lakes.

BSAC have tried to keep their qualifications more rigorous to match the diving conditions surrounding the British coast. However they have had to introduce vacation qualifications more inline with PADI, NAUI, etc.

New Divers should have the differences explained to them but I can think of no way of introducing different qualifications to cope with the differing conditions.

As for people who lie on their forms, or dive when feeling unwell, that’s just an unusual form of committing suicide.

p.s Haggis neeps and tatties, a cullinary delight for all

 

[spankey]

NAUI does not offer a "vacation qualification" which I think is extremly bad of any organisation and instructor to do. we all know that 2 hours in a pool does not make anyone safe!!!

 

[jviehe]

It should be noted that PADI does not have a Advanced Open Water Diver course. They have Adventures in Diving, which is designed to introduce Open Water Divers to specific types of diving in more detail than during Open Water. Once you complete a Deep adventure Dive, an Underwater Navigation Dive, and any 3 other Adventure Dives, then you have completed the requirements for the Advanced Open Water Certification. In addition, you will not earn any credit for simply doing the dive. You must master the performance requirments of each dive and each certification. If a diver has not done this, and an Instructor has passed someone, then they are violating standards.

Furthermore, students are taught that they should only dive in conditions equal or greater than have been trained in or experienced. And finally, most OW divers do not dive much beyond what the initially became certified for, ie a trip or something. So achieving 10 dives and an advanced cert is advanced when compared to the average dives of all OW divers.

As others have mentioned, the fault primarily lies with the diver. PADI is not the problem here. They simply provide a service. If divers fail to follow their training, it is their decision.

 

[MarkUK]

You get good instructors and bad instructors. In all agencies. Just as you get good students and bad students. These deaths are tragedies, but they are down to human error – one ran out of air, one mixed up his primary reg and his pony reg, and the other died after a rapid ascent after doing a dive in cold-water, low-vis conditions when he'd only ever dived in warm, clear waters. Regardless of a diver's cert level, it is still down to the diver themselves to stay within their own limits and comfort zone.

Also, you can't necessarily go by number of dives as to how good someone is. I was on a liveaboard in the Red Sea and there was a guy on board with a group of club buddies, and they all talked him up. "Oh, he's been diving 20-odd year's", "He's got 1,500 dives or more", "He's like a fish – he doesn't use any air - he'll stay down over and hour and a half", etc, etc. First dive, and all dives after that, I witness this prat pootling around in 4-5m, kicking the crap out of the coral while looking for little critters. No wonder his air lasts so long, he doesn't get deeper than a decent pool!

My friend was on the same trip, AOW with 57 dives, diving for two years. Halfway through the week, he was chuffed to bits when other divers asked him for tips on buoyancy and thought he'd been diving for years and clocked up hundreds of dives.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming all and sundry.

Mark

 

[colby]

You get good instructors and bad instructors. In all agencies. Just as you get good students and bad students. These deaths are tragedies, but they are down to human error – one ran out of air, one mixed up his primary reg and his pony reg, and the other died after a rapid ascent after doing a dive in cold-water, low-vis conditions when he'd only ever dived in warm, clear waters. Regardless of a diver's cert level, it is still down to the diver themselves to stay within their own limits and comfort zone.

Also, you can't necessarily go by number of dives as to how good someone is. I was on a liveaboard in the Red Sea and there was a guy on board with a group of club buddies, and they all talked him up. "Oh, he's been diving 20-odd year's", "He's got 1,500 dives or more", "He's like a fish – he doesn't use any air - he'll stay down over and hour and a half", etc, etc. First dive, and all dives after that, I witness this prat pootling around in 4-5m, kicking the crap out of the coral while looking for little critters. No wonder his air lasts so long, he doesn't get deeper than a decent pool!

My friend was on the same trip, AOW with 57 dives, diving for two years. Halfway through the week, he was chuffed to bits when other divers asked him for tips on buoyancy and thought he'd been diving for years and clocked up hundreds of dives.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming all and sundry.

Mark

Well said Mark.

 

[Drewski]

This thread focuses on a whole BUNCH of stuff that's been bothering me lately.

First, training is JUST that, "TRAINING". It's the job of training to teach PROCEDURE, not EXPERIENCE.

Back in the early 80's, I attended a NAUI instructor conference on the "future of diving." In this conference a bunch of stuff was discussed including the need to "specialize" training and integrate it into a "life long" learning approach. Also discussed was the need to integrate certifications with such a process and to market this approach at dive centers to get customers to keep coming back. The theory was that if people kept taking more courses they would keep diving and keep buying equipment. An approach, ultimately, that has proven successful.

IMO, training is only "a ticket to LEARN." Nothing more, nothing less. It does, however, need to reasonably represent the environment that a diver ultimately will be diving in. One of the reference posts indicated that a diver who had died recently completed wreck diving training "in a lake." "In a LAKE?" C'mon now, unless the lake was a Loch (or one of the Great Lakes in the USA) and offered a bunch more challenges then the typical "training lake" in my area with a sunken boat on the 20' bottom, that type training just won’t cut it. But, even with "good" training, you still need MORE.

What's missing in "today's" approach to diving is MENTORING. Used to be that you got certified, did a few more "basic" dives and then paired up with a club or group of friends that helped you increase your experience level. When I became an instructor, I was diving with 3 other friends. Each of us had different levels of experience but we LEARNED from each other. We also welcomed others to the group and probably 30% or more of our dives were with newer divers who were "learning." Three of us eventually became NAUI instructors, but we still continued diving and training together. Diving with those guys always made me feel safe even in the worst conditions.

I also think a BIG problem in "training" these days is the failure to recognize your diving environment. Four cert dives might be fine for 30' dives in warm clear water with minimal equipment, but such an approach won't cut it for tougher environments. I'm currently taking an SSI OW class with my 12 y/o nieces and even though SSI does not require it, my plan for their cert dives includes 6 dives in a lake environment with stuff like platforms, school buses and other things on the bottom, followed by 4 offshore boat dives with depths to 80'. Their biggest hurdle will be mastering the wetsuit and maintaining safety focus while diving, both of which are directly related to the environment we are diving in.

So, if you WANT to improve what's going on in diving today, begin to focus on mentoring divers of all experience levels, NOT just "training" them. This can be done individually, in groups or even at a dive shop level. When I ran a boat, we used to take divers with moderate experience on more "advanced" dives, often pairing them up with buddies who were willing to share experience and help newer divers. The shop would give free air and discounts to such people as a "thank you" and it kept both them and newer divers always coming back.

Finally, while I think that some posters to this forum with "DIR" training (and I'm NOT a "DIRer") are more into DIR because they LIKE saying they are into it, I can't argue with the DIR approach. Procedure training is essential for safe diving. Incorporating elements of such an approach into today's training courses would go a LONG way in increasing safety. BUT, even with DIR, nothing can replace experience. SHARE what you learn with others. TAKE them diving. HELP them become better and more experienced.

JMO...

 

[cudachaser]

The mentoring thing is so important...most people need coaching after their first open waters, from equipment purchases (not hard sales) to safe beginning dives. They also want another set of trusted eyes on their equipment set ups. They tend to be very self concious about screwing up here

 

[jonix]

bash any agency you want but it still boils down to the diver taking responsibility for himself as earlier posters have mentioned. one problem i see is the "social" or "status symbol" thing that people (at least here in the philippines) attached to diving. they pay for the certs but don't really take dive education seriously. their learning process ends when they get the c-card, no efforts to further understand what they are doing to themselves.

it's really a big plus having a board such as this to give you different perspectives to help understand the risks involved.

 

[The Horn]

PADI and any other orgainsation that will certify a diver over the weekend is doing an injustice. Yes the bottom line for the agency is $$$ but people are not getting the proper diving attitute after they are certified.

My recent AOW course was fun but not unlike any other dive experience I had had to date. The program is set up to try and motivate divers to actually practice the skills that thier training established the basics for.

I waited 15 years and then went to get my AOW, why, because most boat operators or charters want to see that wee card to prove that you have atleast a few dives under belt. Does it really mean anything......no, It all depends on the individual.

My original PADI OW card certified me to make any dive type up to a depth of 130 feet with a recomendation/warning that dives beyond 60 feet should not be attempted until skills have been mastered. It took 5 nights of classes, many pool sessions and severl ocean (34 degree freeze your kister off) dives to achieve certification.

After that type of training we spent alot of time above 30 feet learning and practicing.

From reading some of the course outlines of DIR and GUE etc. I think they are just trying to have a certifying organization that gets back to the hard core basics and ensureing a diver has the skills practiced and has a serious attitude about diving. As with anyone personality is that of the individual.

Obviously from the Brit's ranting, the attitude of divers coming out of some of the courses is one of invincibility and a disregard for the dangers involved in diving.

I should like to see a harder run course again for OW and perhaps these weekend certifications stipulate that the diver's life insurance is null and void if it is proven that they were exceeding the level of their experience and training. (say 30 feet, day only)

If PADI wishes to truly offer an ADVANCED course then lets see it encompass rescue as well. We practiced lots of oow, diver unconcious, CPR, paniced diver etc in my OW
that should be basic stuff.

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

[The problem is not with short OW classes. They teach you enough to be safe in easy conditions that are like where you were trained. Statisitcs really do prove this out. The problem with the system is that thesr is no requirement to maintain and further develope skills.

I'd like to see the industry have some kind of recent experiance requirements -- for example a rule that says that if you don't have 6 dives in the last 90 dyas you need to have an instructor dive with you until you meet the 6 dives in 90 days rule. OK change the numbers but N dives in M days for any reasonable N and M.

I personally don't like the idea of recent experience requirements. I don't plan on diving this winter so I'll be out of the water for at least 4 months until temps get back up to where I like them. I just can't afford that drysuit. Under your 6/90 I would have to go back out with an instructor, I don't like that. I think if you haven't dove in the last 6 months then maybe a refresher is in order, but that should be a personal choice not a mandate. Personally I just plan on taking the first dives of the year nice and easy with a nice benign shallow profile till I knock the rust off. This goes back to people trying to protect me from myself, which I don't appreciate.

On another note, I unfortunately think the government in the US will probably step in and try to regulate diving at some point in the future. If that happens I think it could be disasterous for the dive industry. It probably won't happen until someone high profile ends up dying but I do think it will eventually happen. At that point I expect that requirements will probably be more stringent, which will be good, prices will go up, which will be bad, and we'll see expirations much like we have on our drivers license. They'll probably require some sort of a refresher course every x years in order to renew your SCUBA license. Unfortunately this all comes back to personal responsibilitiy and the fact that so many tend to believe people need protection from themselves. Many people do need protection from themselves, but that doesn't mean we all do and I for one am tired of everyone, government or not, trying to protect me from myself. I was specifically told during my OW that I was certified to dive in like conditions that I was trained in and any more hand holding than that is unnecessary. If someone wants to go out and be wreckless, well, I hope they don't hurt anyone else while doing it but that is their right.

With all that being said I would not be opposed at all to making the initial OW certification more stringent, in fact I think it should be done. That being said I'm certainly not going to blame any of the agencies if I decide to take on a dive that is too advanced for me and I get hurt or killed, that was my decision.