Can We Agree On How To Measure The Similarity Of Dive Profiles?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

The thread's topic might have not stated it exactly, but it was spawned from a discussion over similarities of dive profiles as relates to decompression. Why do it otherwise? I assumed that was what we were talking about all along. Who cares about heart rate, for example, if it does not provide data we an use in dive planning?
 
Let me apologize for asking, but I've been trying to understand this topic. What would be represented in the dive profile? The actual times at depth ascending and descending plus what? What do you mean by normalized? Do you mean averaged, and if so based on what data?

One possible way to think of it can be, that a dive profile is a function : time -> pressures that, for each point in time, returns a set of gas pressures for all the gases the diver is breathing at that time. I think what dmaziuk@ is referring to as "normalized" here is the assumption that a dive always starts at time 0, and that time and gas pressures are expressed in the same units, such as minutes and ATM. For example, if we model 3 gases: oxygen, nitrogen, and helium, then for a dive at the sea level, profile(0) = ( 0.21, 0.79, 0 ), to reflect the fact that at the beginning of the dive (time 0), you are diving 0.21 ATM oxygen and 0.79 ATM nitrogen. If after 60 minutes the diver is breathing O2 at 20 feet, then profile(60) = ( 1.6, 0, 0 ), to reflect the fact that the O2 pressure is 1.6 ATM, and there are no other gases.

What would actually be measured, and subsequently provided as adjunct information along with the physical/depth/time positions in the profile? In other words, what are you trying to determine and what data would be gathered and subsequently added in the process of elaborating and expanding on the basic physical positioning involved in a current dive profile?

I'd think one generally desirable objective is that for profiles X and Y, the smaller dissimilarity(X, Y), the closer the distribution of expected outcomes of dives with such profiles X and Y. In simple terms: if the same person P dives both profiles, they'd be expected to experience similar outcomes (in terms of chances of getting bent, or whatever), and if a group of N people dives such profiles, you'd expect the various possible outcomes to have occurred with similar frequency for X and for Y. You'd probably also want to require that dissimilarity is large if profiles are "mathematically" very different (e.g., one dive is to 100 feet and another to 150 feet), even if the expected outcomes are the same (e.g., because the second dive always includes a generously padded amount of deco that renders the differences in outcome insignificant).

I realize there is not enough data to derive such metric purely from the statistics of how often people get bent. I would expect, however, that rather than using physical outcomes (such as getting bent), you can perform the same analysis based on physiological parameters or outcomes as predicted by various models.

For example, what has already been mentioned in various threads, you could compute parameters such as "max tissue supersaturation" or "integral tissue supersaturation", as a function of a dive profile, and then express dissimilarity of the two profiles in terms of how much such values differ. That would be, essentially, reducing each profile into a number, and then comparing two numbers. If there are N such values of interest, you could take them all into account by expressing dissimilarity between profiles as a distance in N-dimensional space.

Or maybe, rather than reducing each profile into a number, you could stack them side by side, and look at the absolute difference in tissue supersaturation at various points in time, then compute an integral of such a difference.

Or perhaps there are other parameters of interest that you can compute from yet some other model, and here, I have no idea what they might possibly be, I thought something else would come up.
 
Last edited:
The thread's topic might have not stated it exactly, but it was spawned from a discussion over similarities of dive profiles as relates to decompression.

(This reminds me of vehicle mechanics sending new apprentices to the store room to fetch a bucket of compression.)

How do you propose to measure decompression?
  • You could wait half a century and implant doppler echo gizmos in every diver's body to record formation of bubbles in situ. Not available right now.
  • You could try to extract meaningful information from EMT/coroner reports on those who got clinically bent. Not enough data points for any meaningful statistics.
  • You could pull the logs out of dive computers. That's available, what do they tell you?
According to @agilis #19
Deco computers are actually making an estimate of one and only one phenomenon, the persistence of nitrogen gas in tissue, and are basing this estimate on time/depth permutations established primarily through experience and physiological analysis.
So the available measurement of "decompression" is tissue loading according to some "mechanistic non-organic models" (ibid). It has an additional advantage of being "fairly easy" to deal with (again @agilis #19).

What would be represented in the dive profile? The actual times at depth ascending and descending plus what?

What do you mean by normalized? Do you mean averaged, and if so based on what data?

If we accept "tissue loading per time" as premise, then "normalized" would mean recalculated from time and pressure readings using the same exact model for every profile.

Furthermore, I'm sure the methods for comparing 2-dimensional data sets (gas loading vs time) exist, but I never had a need to use one, so I'm not familiar with any. I did in my work run across methods for comparing one-dimensional sequences so I'd aim for one like those. So I would further normalize it into a linear sequence by recalculating gas loading to the same time quantum. Say, quarter time of the fastest compartment. Or 1/8th or whatever.

What would actually be measured, and subsequently provided as adjunct information along with the physical/depth/time positions in the profile?
Who cares about heart rate, for example, if it does not provide data we an use in dive planning?

I was trying to point out that dive computers measure temperature, AI dive computers measure cylinder pressure, and vanishingly few dive computers come with chest straps to measure heart rate. I make no claim as to the usefulness of any of those measurements, nor propose to pull any other measurements out of any other sources.

In other words, what are you trying to determine and what data would be gathered and subsequently added in the process of elaborating and expanding on the basic physical positioning involved in a current dive profile?
  1. @kr2y5 asked in #1: "What is "similarity"? How would you define this concept for a pair of dive profiles, in concrete terms?" -- I am trying to propose an objective, concrete, and readily available representation of a "dive profile" suitable for 'similarity' analysis.
  2. One usual justification for these sort of projects is "right now this kind of data does not exist and what we can determine from it is exactly nada. So it can only go up from here."
 
Last edited:
  • You could wait half a century and implant doppler echo gizmos in every diver's body to record formation of bubbles in situ. Not available right now.
  • You could try to extract meaningful information from EMT/coroner reports on those who got clinically bent. Not enough data points for any meaningful statistics.
  • You could pull the logs out of dive computers. That's available, what do they tell you?

In general, in many similar situations in other domains, there is the fourth possibility that's used pretty often: using a proxy metric. If you have some statistic, measurement, or prediction X that is known or believed to be strongly correlated with the outcomes you care about, but is much more easily obtained, then you can treat X as a proxy for the physical outcomes, and do all the analysis as if X were what you're after, and you can still often get meaningful results of a very high practical utility.

How much evidence is there that the various statistics of tissue load are correlated with decompression sickness? For which statistics of tissue load is there more objective evidence? Is there any other metric or data that's much easier to get by than samples of bent or unbent divers, for which we have such evidence?
 
This beeing Scubaboard I guess that people want to compare the safety of various dive profiles. Hence the need for similarity assession.
There are decompression risks, compression risks, submersion risks, high/low temperature risks, gas switching risks and so on.
Safety depends on these risks and their probabilities and the damage done when mud cake hits the fan. Personal factors are important.

Because this boils down to hyperbaric physiology and statistics I am pretty convinced that nobody without postdoctoral research experience in hyperbaric medicine, or statistics, has a lot to say really. Over and out.
 
Perhaps we should get back to topic here?

The only thing describing a dive profile which doesn't depend on a model with a bunch of assumptions is the time/depth - or time/pressure - profile. The difference between time/depth profiles can easily be described quantitatively and is independent of the choice of decompression model.

Calculate the depth difference at each time/depth point in the profile, do a sum of squares. That's a numerical measurement of how different the profiles are. If you want to emphasize differences in the deep part of the dive, you can do a weighting of the points by how deep you are (e.g. multiply the square of the depth difference at a given time by the average of the two depths).
 
Thread has drifted way off topic.
Thread closed.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom