Soggy
Contributor
Charlie99:
Umm, PADI OW day 2 or 3
In DIR, one uses Average depth to calculate gas loading rather than maximum depth, though...this is taught in DIRF.
Computers/Timers?
- Thread starter CJ-62
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Umm, PADI OW day 2 or 3
In DIR, one uses Average depth to calculate gas loading rather than maximum depth, though...this is taught in DIRF.
Soggy
Contributor
CJ-62:
It's not a big secret, but if you want to learn about it, take and pass DIRF and then take Tech 1. Basically, you use air tables printed out of Decoplanner to plan dives of any depth or duration. It's pretty simple stuff.
CJ,
Looks like a whole lot of questions on DIR, accident prevention, computers/tables, etc... I'm just a diver that loves diving and switched to DIR for a few reasons. So, this may be an unqualified opinion from a non-instructor. I have not seen an organization that holistically teaches everything in one package from the ground up (OW-most sophicated exploration diving). When I mean ground up, its everything from the big picture to the little itty-bitty stuff.
Accident Prevention. DIR truly excels here b/c discipline and rigor is placed back in the dive team. Think for moment, just the simple things like rock bottom with each team member carrying each other's gas for emergency. Then the the dive plan/strategy before you walk in the water. This is far more detailed than just max depth and time and requires some math. Once you're in the water the routine: bubble check, S-Drill, flow check, pressure check. Then you descend into the watery abyss, the mission is second to team integrity: the formation, light discipline, remembering what you saw and the min by min playback in your head b/c you were on the 'right' gas, and then readjusting your dive plan and deco strategy on the fly with all team members on the same page without writing anything down.
Some may say this is too rgid, but it's bullet-proof and works everytime. Take for instance two reoccuring accidents which involve OOA and buddy separation. Having gone through these checks and discussion, you should never find an out of gas situation (you've got more than plenty of it distributed amongst all team members and you've done flow check and pressure check at the surface along with breathing it). Let's say you do have one with tank O-ring failure or 1st stage failure, team members are trained to donate their reg or better yet, the OOA diver can just grab the reg from another team member's mouth and breathe off it-its no big deal (my gas is your gas is our gas). Now, you should never lose your buddy (team integrity takes priority). There's none of this waving good bye...If there's no light, physical contact, or visual of each other's masks for more than a few seconds, it's time for #1 to pull the formation a little tighter and get #2 and #3 inline. Is that too rigid? Perhaps, but the team is more important than the individual. Doesn't mean you can't deviate from the plan/strategy, but you do need to move and change together. And #1 doesn't always have to be #1 while in the water. Yes, it's very much like dancing the tango...
As you peel the layers away from the way things are done, you start to see the reasoning and how it everything all fits together. Take for a moment the finer aspect of wearing guages...One of many 'tricks of the trade' that are presented. These become more crucial as you add on scooters, stages, etc...Things are worn on the right and left for a reason. Imagine your buddy OOA and just knocked his mask off trying to fumble around and the backup mask is unavailable (for whatever reason). Can the two of you complete your free ascent with stops together? There is an easy way to do this and a tougher way. How about doing ox tox rescue of controlling your bouyancy and the toxing diver's bouyancy with a reg in the toxing diver's mouth and having full situational awareness of depth, time and surrounding. The way you wear your gauges easily facilitates your emergency responses.
Computers: This along with many other 'tricks of the trade' is taught progressively through GUE training. At the DIR-F level, you can pretty much throw the tables away and figure everything in your head. It really is simple. With depth and time, you can easily figure out: how much gas is left in your tank, how much time you have remaining at that depth, and how long you can stay at shallower depths. And if you go over, you know how to readjust your min deco. A properly trained head is far better than the most sophicated computer. At the DIR-F, you learn every dive is a deco dive and deep stops are introduced there as well.
Having said that, are you always going to be accident free and never going to get bent? We like to strive for that and keep our skills sharp, but you can't guarantee that. It's really about taking every advantage possible into the water everytime. And when things go bad, you might not be as elegant in solving the problem as you want, and you might get a Type I hit, but that's better than Type II. And if you get a Type II, it's better than dead. Take the classes, just mountains of useful info and healthy doses of feedback.
Sincerely,
Harry
Looks like a whole lot of questions on DIR, accident prevention, computers/tables, etc... I'm just a diver that loves diving and switched to DIR for a few reasons. So, this may be an unqualified opinion from a non-instructor. I have not seen an organization that holistically teaches everything in one package from the ground up (OW-most sophicated exploration diving). When I mean ground up, its everything from the big picture to the little itty-bitty stuff.
Accident Prevention. DIR truly excels here b/c discipline and rigor is placed back in the dive team. Think for moment, just the simple things like rock bottom with each team member carrying each other's gas for emergency. Then the the dive plan/strategy before you walk in the water. This is far more detailed than just max depth and time and requires some math. Once you're in the water the routine: bubble check, S-Drill, flow check, pressure check. Then you descend into the watery abyss, the mission is second to team integrity: the formation, light discipline, remembering what you saw and the min by min playback in your head b/c you were on the 'right' gas, and then readjusting your dive plan and deco strategy on the fly with all team members on the same page without writing anything down.
Some may say this is too rgid, but it's bullet-proof and works everytime. Take for instance two reoccuring accidents which involve OOA and buddy separation. Having gone through these checks and discussion, you should never find an out of gas situation (you've got more than plenty of it distributed amongst all team members and you've done flow check and pressure check at the surface along with breathing it). Let's say you do have one with tank O-ring failure or 1st stage failure, team members are trained to donate their reg or better yet, the OOA diver can just grab the reg from another team member's mouth and breathe off it-its no big deal (my gas is your gas is our gas). Now, you should never lose your buddy (team integrity takes priority). There's none of this waving good bye...If there's no light, physical contact, or visual of each other's masks for more than a few seconds, it's time for #1 to pull the formation a little tighter and get #2 and #3 inline. Is that too rigid? Perhaps, but the team is more important than the individual. Doesn't mean you can't deviate from the plan/strategy, but you do need to move and change together. And #1 doesn't always have to be #1 while in the water. Yes, it's very much like dancing the tango...
As you peel the layers away from the way things are done, you start to see the reasoning and how it everything all fits together. Take for a moment the finer aspect of wearing guages...One of many 'tricks of the trade' that are presented. These become more crucial as you add on scooters, stages, etc...Things are worn on the right and left for a reason. Imagine your buddy OOA and just knocked his mask off trying to fumble around and the backup mask is unavailable (for whatever reason). Can the two of you complete your free ascent with stops together? There is an easy way to do this and a tougher way. How about doing ox tox rescue of controlling your bouyancy and the toxing diver's bouyancy with a reg in the toxing diver's mouth and having full situational awareness of depth, time and surrounding. The way you wear your gauges easily facilitates your emergency responses.
Computers: This along with many other 'tricks of the trade' is taught progressively through GUE training. At the DIR-F level, you can pretty much throw the tables away and figure everything in your head. It really is simple. With depth and time, you can easily figure out: how much gas is left in your tank, how much time you have remaining at that depth, and how long you can stay at shallower depths. And if you go over, you know how to readjust your min deco. A properly trained head is far better than the most sophicated computer. At the DIR-F, you learn every dive is a deco dive and deep stops are introduced there as well.
Having said that, are you always going to be accident free and never going to get bent? We like to strive for that and keep our skills sharp, but you can't guarantee that. It's really about taking every advantage possible into the water everytime. And when things go bad, you might not be as elegant in solving the problem as you want, and you might get a Type I hit, but that's better than Type II. And if you get a Type II, it's better than dead. Take the classes, just mountains of useful info and healthy doses of feedback.
Sincerely,
Harry
Charlie99
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Thanks for the clarification.HarryH97:
Having read many posts, such as the thread referenced by Onfloat above, I was confused about this, since many said that no-tables deco was not covered in DIR-F, and that even in later courses it was taught only verbally and differed from instructor to instructor.
Charlie99
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Good. I've developed my own personal method using both a full dive average and a rolling average depth. In which course materials would I find documentation of the GUE method so that I could compare it with mine?Soggy:
Soggy
Contributor
Charlie99:
LOL...What course materials? Seriously, there is very little published literature regarding GUE procedures.
Soggy:
Then why do I have such trouble getting it posted? Several posts reference rules of thumb for in-water calculations but no-one posts the formula. What gives? If it is a safety concern, then intentionaly withholding information someone might use in a DOA timer/computer scenario is a crime. Also, please do not concern yourself with my personal safety, that is my responsibility only.
As an open invitation, I would like to read the deco procedure used by any and all readers, feel free to PM it to me so that no other divers are injured thru misuse of the information.
If Decoplanner is the heart of all this then why are computers banned from official D/G functions? The VR-3 manufacturer would probably integrate that model, if they haven't already (I have no idea, just rambling).
BTW all comments to the effect of "just take the class" are wasted on me.
Charlie99
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GUE's Decoplanner is a basic neo-Haldanian / Buhlmann (often referred to by DIR divers as the "bend and mend algorithm") with gradient factors. It is the same algorithm as in most older, pre-RGBM, computers.CJ-62:
Just as a diver can dive an intelligent profile independent of the computer model, one can also modify the bend and mend Decoplanner by using gradient factors, and by ascent/deco strategies.
If you look a bit more behind the curtain, you will see that the prohibition on computers is not as much about algorithm, but instead is to prohibit dumb reliance upon computers (If it ain't on your wrist, you sure aren't gonna blindly rely upon it
) This is my interpretation of many posts ... others may disagree.Charlie99:
Charlie,
Let me clarify and say that DIR-F does not teach decompression. It does however teach you to slowly control your ascent and the reasoning behind it and introduces deep stops or pauses. This is Min Deco. Nothing more at the recreational level. This is foundational or "Fundamentals" and is further amplified in follow on training that involves deco and how we go about shaping it. And it's not something we discuss on the internet in open forum without proper training. Deco and how we do it is mightily controversial. Until the day comes that I don't feel like a million bucks 1 hour postdive, I plan on sticking with what what's been presented to me.
Sincerely,
Harry
CJ-62:
DecoPlanner is just a tool that confirms or validates your deco time. Unfortunately, that's about it. Human intervention is required to readjust where to place that time. Even then, it might be a bit longer or bit shorter. Taking bits and pieces here and there off the internet is just not the way to learn this type of diving. All of these 'tricks of the trade' pieces holistically fit together. In the untrained hands, even a set of doubles or single E8-130 with a long hose can be fatal self-inflicting equipment. Same can be said of 'on-the-fly' deco. There are many factors that you must have a firm understanding and where to accept risk and where to mitigate and where to maximize your benefits. That's why 'take the course' is appropriate. I see you have no interest in formal education. Unfortunately, I have wasted my time on you.
Sincerely,
Harry
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