Considering BP/W switch and need input

[Blue Sparkle]

I'll add a note, because I think I remember you saying you have long legs/shorter torso: Some brands of backplates come in sizes (otherwise they are what I call "One size fits all... men" ).

The "standard" plate is around 15"-15.5" tall. Some brands only have that one size. Brands I know that have more sizes are these (there may be more that I don't know of):

DSS: S, M, L, Long, X-Long
Halcyon: S, M
Agir-Brokk, S, M (hard to find in US though, and no camband slots)
Oxycheq: S (maybe?), M

DSS's Small is around 13" tall; Halcyon and AB's is around 14" tall.

By the way, Tobin is Tobin George who owns DSS, aka Deep Sea Supply.

Blue Sparkle

 

[Eff]

What great advice, thank you ALL! Merry whatever you celebrate!

To clarify a couple of things...

1. I take no weight when diving a HP steel 100 and wearing a 3mm full suit. I am in search of a 5mm which fits which I have come to believe is impossible and I will have to go custom. I don't have intentions of diving water any colder than what we have here at home, NC, in the spring and fall. So here at home with a singles rig, it sounds like an AL plate would be fine.

2. When I travel and dive an AL 80, and am wearing a 3mm full suit, I take about 12 pounds. Yes, I know, the formulas say this isn't so, but I do weight checks, and it is so for me. So in a situation where I am traveling, it seems that a steel plate would be nice, as I hate weight belts. Though it would have to be carried on an airplane.

3. Harnesses-there are different kinds, right? I have heard of these quick release ones. From what I can tell though, the one piece ones makes more sense. Adjustability is important to me as I am getting smaller. I am not ingrowing my BC as it is a Zeagle and infinitely adjustable. But for a harness, it needs to get smaller as I do.

4. It sounds like I will definitely be getting two wings, one for travel, one for home when diving my steels. TS and M, is it only MY gear I need to be prepared to float? I dive to the edge of rec limits here in NC.

5. I like the idea of plates which are designed for easier stowage of bits and pieces, one of you mention a plate which was designed to help stow an SMB. I carry two SMBs here at home. A reel and a spool, one or two lights.

6. Who the heck is Tobin? I am happy to call Tobin, but I have no idea who he is and where he does what he does, lol.

EFF, Merry Christmas to you in particular. Those of you who are not with your families today have our sincere thanks and best wishes that you get to come home soon.

No worries, just doing my job. I volunteered to be over here this time of year, since I'm the single guy and I'd rather the crews with families get to go home (plus I want the summer off to DIVE!).

1) Yeah, aluminum

2) Only reason I brought up weight is because I've heard that some airlines have carry-on weight restrictions nowadays. More so in Europe but possibly in the US (if not now then soon). If weight restrictions aren't an issue, then I agree, steel is better.

3) I know Halcyon and a few other brands make harnesses that can cinch down in a few seconds, for easier ingress/egress.
As for quick-releases, I know a few people that dive with one on one of the shoulder straps. Helps a lot for when you don't have the flexibility, etc. Technically it's another failure point to consider, although remote. Worst case, one could fail during a critical time, such as climbing back on the boat in rough seas, swinging the setup across your back causing you to lose your balance and fall, drown, etc.
There are those who strongly oppose them, those who like them, and those who don't care (me).
I personally don't use one. I like less clutter and failure points, but I won't criticize anyone who feels they need one.

4) (I realize this question wasn't for me)
TS&M's answer regarding wing flotation requirements was much better than mine and I'll defer my answer to him/her.


5) Yeah, I mentioned the Halcyon backplate and pouch system. It's pretty cool how it all works. Here's a link:
http://www.halcyon.net/bc/backplate (bottom of page)
Fits on the inside of your backplate (towards your back, opening facing down) and is incredibly secure. Since the Halcyon backplate has a sharper bend at the spine, the bulk of storing an SMB back there (folded, not wrapped) is minimal and not noticeable. You can then clip your reel snap outside on a D-ring, plate, hole, the spool itself in the pouch, etc... There are many ways to stow it.
A lot of my buddies use the system and love it. I've been able to try it out and liked it a lot, which is why my next backplate will be Halcyon.

Disclaimer - there may be other brands out there that offer a similar backplate / pouch setup. Not sure if they're as awesome but they probably work just fine.

6) I believe Tobin is someone who works for Deep Sea Supply (DSS). A great company from what I've heard. I don't have any experience with them or their products (yet).

 

[TSandM]

When you ask, "Is it only MY gear . . . " are you contemplating floating something else with your rig? If you were providing support to another diver, then you'd have the rig ON, with the lift from your wetsuit. And you would inflate the other diver's BC and ditch the other diver's weights, so you wouldn't be trying to float someone for very long.

If you are really going to try to optimize everything, you will end up with a warm water and a colder water rig (can't write "cold" water, because you aren't diving in any, really!) For a 3 mil suit and an Al80, my Kydex plate and 17 lb wing is as close as I'm ever going to get to feeling like I have no gear at all. But with a steel tank and a heavier suit, I need more lift. However, it works perfectly well to buy a single setup and use it both places. Buy the plate that works with your minimal weighting, and the wing that works for the colder water, and because your requirements aren't all that different, you'll have a setup that will work both places. You will have to add weight in warm water, it sounds like.

Storage is the biggest downside of backplate systems, because they don't have any, and you have to figure out how to add it. X-shorts over your wetsuit are an easy and very effective way to store safety items where they don't dangle and are easily accessible. You can also glue pockets onto a wetsuit. There are fabric pieces or pads that go over the plate and create a pocket between them and the metal where you can put a lift bag, if you want something bigger than what you can stow in your pockets. You can also clip a marker buoy and spool to your hip d-ring or butt d-ring, but you do run a certain risk of having it come off (or having your buddy steal it, inflate it, and hook it back up to you, which I have seen done ).

 

[lulubelle]

The wife and I have DSS rigs with steel back plates and 17lb wings, we only dive warm water with aluminum 80's so this works great for us, very minimalist. I agree that you'll eventually need or want steel and Kydex or aluminum BP's.

I agree that a steel BP and minimalist wing would be the best set up for when I travel and am diving an AL 80 so that half of my weight will be in my plate. I have (Maldives this year transiting through Dubai and Sri Lanka) and intend to continue traveling far and wide to places with really rigid weight requirements. Have you found that the extra 5 pounds or so has put you afoul of baggage limits? I'll have to weigh my empty BC sometime and see where it comes in. Though I have no idea what the weight of a harness/wing/inflator would be.

You will be going away from the best fitting (If correctly sized)best designed, best diving BC on the market to what, webbing threaded through a plate. You may like it or you may not.
You might consider removing the unnecessary rear trim weigh system off the Stiletto to save about 2 pounds travel weight.

..

I agree that Zeagle is the BOMB for those of us who are hard to fit. I had to put a small shoulder into a medium BC and it fits beautifully. I did remove the rear trim pockets once I bought my HP 100 steel tanks for use here in NC. And I put new cam bands on it as the double velcro bands although very secure are a bit tough on a rocking boat which we have on occasion here .

I'll add a note, because I think I remember you saying you have long legs/shorter torso: Some brands of backplates come in sizes (otherwise they are what I call "One size fits all... men" ).

The "standard" plate is around 15"-15.5" tall. Some brands only have that one size. Brands I know that have more sizes are these (there may be more that I don't know of):

DSS: S, M, L, Long, X-Long
Halcyon: S, M
Agir-Brokk, S, M (hard to find in US though, and no camband slots)
Oxycheq: S (maybe?), M

DSS's Small is around 13" tall; Halcyon and AB's is around 14" tall.

By the way, Tobin is Tobin George who owns DSS, aka Deep Sea Supply.

Blue Sparkle

Thanks Blue Sparkle, Proportionately, yes, I have a short torso versus leg length. But I am tall, so that probably nets out a pretty average length torso. Very glad to know about the sizes available in plates. Thanks!

 

[lulubelle]

2) Only reason I brought up weight is because I've heard that some airlines have carry-on weight restrictions nowadays. More so in Europe but possibly in the US (if not now then soon). If weight restrictions aren't an issue, then I agree, steel is better.

3) I know Halcyon and a few other brands make harnesses that can cinch down in a few seconds, for easier ingress/egress.
As for quick-releases, I know a few people that dive with one on one of the shoulder straps. Helps a lot for when you don't have the flexibility, etc. Technically it's another failure point to consider, although remote. Worst case, one could fail during a critical time, such as climbing back on the boat in rough seas, swinging the setup across your back causing you to lose your balance and fall, drown, etc.
There are those who strongly oppose them, those who like them, and those who don't care (me).
I personally don't use one. I like less clutter and failure points, but I won't criticize anyone who feels they need one.

5) Yeah, I mentioned the Halcyon backplate and pouch system. It's pretty cool how it all works. Here's a link:
Backplate and Harness | Halcyon Dive Systems (bottom of page)
Fits on the inside of your backplate (towards your back, opening facing down) and is incredibly secure. Since the Halcyon backplate has a sharper bend at the spine, the bulk of storing an SMB back there (folded, not wrapped) is minimal and not noticeable. You can then clip your reel snap outside on a D-ring, plate, hole, the spool itself in the pouch, etc... There are many ways to stow it.
A lot of my buddies use the system and love it. I've been able to try it out and liked it a lot, which is why my next backplate will be Halcyon.

Disclaimer - there may be other brands out there that offer a similar backplate / pouch setup. Not sure if they're as awesome but they probably work just fine.

2. Now if I can get someone to weight their harness, inflator, and steel plate, I'll weigh my BC and see what kind of excess we are really talking about. Weight restrictions make it a real art to traveling with dive gear these days. I had to buy a scale, but I sometimes run afoul on my return because the gear is not fully dry.

3. Conceptually, I agree. I do a wee bit of poking around inside of wrecks, am no stranger to rough seas, and am pretty flexible, so a continuous system should work well for me. Dumb question here...if one did have a quick release webbing, which I have never seen, would that make it hard to refit as I got smaller?

5. Will check that out. I put a rigid D ring on my lower cam band this past summer where i put my bigger SMB and reel and finally eliminated my last somewhat dangly item.

When you ask, "Is it only MY gear . . . " are you contemplating floating something else with your rig? If you were providing support to another diver, then you'd have the rig ON, with the lift from your wetsuit. And you would inflate the other diver's BC and ditch the other diver's weights, so you wouldn't be trying to float someone for very long.

If you are really going to try to optimize everything, you will end up with a warm water and a colder water rig (can't write "cold" water, because you aren't diving in any, really!) For a 3 mil suit and an Al80, my Kydex plate and 17 lb wing is as close as I'm ever going to get to feeling like I have no gear at all. But with a steel tank and a heavier suit, I need more lift. However, it works perfectly well to buy a single setup and use it both places. Buy the plate that works with your minimal weighting, and the wing that works for the colder water, and because your requirements aren't all that different, you'll have a setup that will work both places. You will have to add weight in warm water, it sounds like.

Storage is the biggest downside of backplate systems, because they don't have any, and you have to figure out how to add it. X-shorts over your wetsuit are an easy and very effective way to store safety items where they don't dangle and are easily accessible. You can also glue pockets onto a wetsuit. There are fabric pieces or pads that go over the plate and create a pocket between them and the metal where you can put a lift bag, if you want something bigger than what you can stow in your pockets. You can also clip a marker buoy and spool to your hip d-ring or butt d-ring, but you do run a certain risk of having it come off (or having your buddy steal it, inflate it, and hook it back up to you, which I have seen done ).

Yes, I wasn't thinking on that first point. I took rescue this summer, so I knew that.

Good logic on the integration of my not very varied diving environments, thanks. I have a feeling that I will end up with two set ups over time. I am toying with the idea of doing AN/deco procedures which will change things up a bit. This may be a stupid question too, but are all BP suited for doubles if I decide to proceed with that training?

That's TERRIBLE that someone's buddy did that, hopefully it was not in an environment where it caused a problem. My rescue instructor was great. He threw me curveballs like that. Then he had me do sweeps with my reel to find him and each time he would be in a different scenario to see what my instincts were about the best solution. I found myself pulling my knife and cutting line a number of times.

So many decisions to select a BPW set up! Probably why I ended up buying a BC as the decisions were already made. But now that I have started modifying it, I am leaning more towards building what I need from the ground up. Just had to replace something that is perfectly good. BC barely looks used and it has 160 dives on it.

 

[TSandM]

No, it wasn't a problem at all, it was just a prank. The diver whose SMB was stolen just couldn't figure out why all of a sudden he seemed to be head-down in trim . . .

Some time ago, during one of these discussions about gear weight, we weighed my husband's Balance and my steel plate and wing. As I recall, they were within one or two pounds of each other, and I have this nagging memory that the Balance was actually heavier. At any rate, we haven't run up against weight restrictions, although we haven't traveled on the little island-hoppers in the Pacific that have severe limits. I do pack the Kydex plate for most tropical travel, although the weight savings is only about three pounds.

As far as I know, all plates work for doubles. The DSS steel plates can be a little bit of a problem at times with rental tanks. Tobin makes them with a shallow bend, which puts a single tank closer to your back and therefore more stable. That's great, except if the dive op has used short bolts on the doubles. We cannot use DSS plates on the tank sets at Extreme Exposure in Florida at all, and in Mexico, we have to go through and pick out the tanks with longer bolts. The Kydex plates have a little give to them, so that's not an issue.

 

[greylion]

I agree that a steel BP and minimalist wing would be the best set up for when I travel and am diving an AL 80 so that half of my weight will be in my plate. I have (Maldives this year transiting through Dubai and Sri Lanka) and intend to continue traveling far and wide to places with really rigid weight requirements. Have you found that the extra 5 pounds or so has put you afoul of baggage limits? I'll have to weigh my empty BC sometime and see where it comes in. Though I have no idea what the weight of a harness/wing/inflator would be.

I always place my backplate in my carry on bag, so it's no problem.

 

[flots am]

1) streamlining here at home in NC,

You can streamline anything. There's no magic in a BP/W.

I dive a HP steel 100 and require no weight with a singles rig leaving extra bulk in the pockets which is not useful

That's a bigger problem and one that a BP won't fix.

All the safety procedures in recreational SCUBA training rely on your ability to become positively buoyant at any point during the dive and on the surface.

If you're negative (you are, by definition at the beginning of the dive), you have no way to achieve positive buoyancy in case of a BC or inflator failure, or OOA, except by ditching your entire rig.

You're more than welcome to buy a BP if you want one, but it won't fix either of your problems.

4. Types and brands of harnesses and wings? I'm clear as mud what the differences are despite reading a lot of threads on the subject.

The plate brand is pretty much irrelevant. It's a bent piece of metal with some slots and holes. If you go with a single harness (one piece of webbing and a buckle), the manufacturer is also mostly irrelevant, although I would recommend a good metal buckle, not plastic.

The wing is a different story. There are a ton of different styles, sizes and lift capacity and everybody beleive theirs is The One True Way. I'll just stay out of that one.





flots.

 

[TSandM]

I disagree that all plates are plates.

Some have lots of holes around the outside (which facilitates things like placement of Argon bottle holders) and some have very few. Spacing of harness slots can vary, and some plates have camband slots and others don't. DSS plates have mounting holes for his weight plates, and elastomeric inserts in the lower slots so you don't have to use a triglide to stabilize the harness. Bend angles vary. Material quality and finish vary. And weight varies a little, too. And some manufacturers make plates in different sizes, and others don't.

 

[lulubelle]

You can streamline anything. There's no magic in a BP/W.



That's a bigger problem and one that a BP won't fix.

All the safety procedures in recreational SCUBA training rely on your ability to become positively buoyant at any point during the dive and on the surface.

If you're negative (you are, by definition at the beginning of the dive), you have no way to achieve positive buoyancy in case of a BC or inflator failure, or OOA, except by ditching your entire rig.

You're more than welcome to buy a BP if you want one, but it won't fix either of your problems.

flots.

I'm not sure I communicated successfully here flots. Please respond again so that I understand your points.

The only problems I am trying to fix are 1)unneeded bulk and 2)the efficiency of traveling with my gear.

I'm pretty sure that I have streamlined the Stiletto as much as I can. I cannot remove the 4 side pockets on my BC (two for weight and two for whatever) which are currently not being used for anything except my spare SMB/spool. They also get on my nerves a bit as they create a lot of bulk around my waist/hip. I have already removed the rear trim pockets, put new cam bands on which are easier to change out on a rocking boat, and put a rigid D ring on the lower right for my larger SMB and reel.

As for travel, I am aiming for smaller and lighter. I have seen how much smaller the travel bags of friends traveling with BP/Ws are and I envy that.

As for my ability to achieve positive buoyancy in the event of an BC failure, I have no problems there and that wasn't one of my reasons for seeking advice about BP/W options. I gave the description of my current set up and weight requirements so that readers would be able to offer advice on the type of plate that would be most suitable for the type of diving I am doing. I've lived through an inflator failure (actually, turned out to be a dump valve stuck in open...), and generally don't use my BC much at all though it has 35 pounds of lift. I am able to change my position easily with my breathing, can fin up without difficulty and maintain my safety stops without issue. And there is always my lift bag. I like the buoyancy characteristics of steel tanks far better and would not dive anything smaller here though I do generally board with at least half of my tank left.