Correct behavior of instructor?

[chinadan]

We would not have this post if there had not been an instructor present. I was indeed under the assumption that an instructor, even while acting as a dive guide (that's after all what I and the other guys paid for), has some amount of responsibility for the group. Especially when there are new divers on their first dive. I guess I was wrong with that assumption, having never dived without a paid professional as a buddy or guide.

But what role and responsibilities does a instructor/DM/dive guide then have? Plan the dive properly? Assign buddy teams? Or just lead the way to the best spots on the reef?

As previously mentioned, the initial mistake was made when the instructor told me to tag along with him and the other pair. If the other pair was not doing a class, the instructor was my buddy (implied). If he did do a class, then he should have not allowed me to go with him but stick with the new pair, right?

So the mistake I made was to not ask him whether he was doing a class. I am well aware that I am responsible for my own safety as well as my buddy's (if I have one ) and I was never in danger (or more than an arm's length away from the instructor).

I guess I am projecting my own feelings/fears on the situation of the new divers and how I would have reacted. Getting into problems under water on the first dive would have unnerved me. Not having a SMB for safe surfacing in a heavy-traffic area may have added to this feeling.

I am still impressed by the pair's disciplined behavior, probably because the worst that has happened to me so far was a loose tank...

Anyway, I thank everybody for their criticism and opinions. I do believe, though, that there are many divers out there that make the wrong assumption like I did - that a paid dive guide/DM/instructor on any non-class dive is the "boss" and has some amount of responsibility for the group of buddies.

 

[Snowbear]

But what role and responsibilities does a instructor/DM/dive guide then have? Plan the dive properly? Assign buddy teams? Or just lead the way to the best spots on the reef?

The DM's role depends on what you've agreed upon when you paid him. Sometimes it's leading the way and pointing out the good stuff. Sometimes it's being the assigned buddy. Sometimes it's just supervising the dive, keep the pod together or just try to keep the divers from killing themselves, the reef and each other. Though the DM may suggest a plan and give a briefing of what to expect at a particular site, s/he is not responsible for planning your dive or making sure you stick with your plan (though it's unfortunate, in some areas, some do that as part of their role). In the end though, it's ultimately your responsibility as a certified diver. As for buddy teams - Sure the DM can assign them, but it's up to you to uphold your end of that team. You also need to be clear on who your buddy or buddies are before you get in the water.

 

[Snowbear]

On a side note: Hong Kong dive clubs demanded that Asian-trained divers get re-certified for diving in HK waters after 2 fatalities there...due to poor standards in Asia.

:06: I'm confused - isn't Hong Kong in Asia :06:

 

[dbulmer]

Snowbear, Boogie et al are of course correct however I've got bags load of sympathy for ChinaDan in what he says above.

I agree with ChinaDan that:

"that there are many divers out there that make the wrong assumption like I did - that a paid dive guide/DM/instructor on any non-class dive is the "boss" and has some amount of responsibility for the group of buddies."

The behaviour of some DMs/Instructors often leave the diver in no doubt who's in charge however right or wrong that might be. While it's easy to criticise the new diver or inexperienced diver, sometimes it would be nice to have great role models enforcing the rules visibly and without exception. During my own training there was little emphasis placed on the individual responsibilities of the diver and I suspect that this might be true for others too.

How do you tell a DM his dive plan is inadequate when you're still wet behind the ears
and don't have the skills and experience he has? You end up trusting the DM and guess what, your dive becomes a trust me dive.

 

[dbulmer]

Snowbear,
In many cases the responsibilities of the DM are not clearly spelled out - it would do no harm for a DM to spell it out for the inexperienced ie communicate. I agree with you 100% but it's not something that is stressed in training and it could be.

 

[chinadan]

:06: I'm confused - isn't Hong Kong in Asia :06:

Of course, you are right. Hong Kong is in Asia. Most dive clubs are BSAC-affiliates (I am not sure is BSAC is active anywhere else in Asia as HK is a former British colony), PADI is second and the diving is quite different due to ppor visibility, colder water and heavy boat traffic. I have not dived in HK myself.

This, I guess, makes HK rather unique in this area, as far as comparibility to training dive sites in Asia goes.

With Asia, the article in the South China Morning Post implied typical dive destinations such as Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia. the 2 fatalities apparently received their training in these destinations. Whether the call for re-certification for HK is out of safety concerns or simply to generate more business for the HK dive shops was also being discussed.

It appears that the common consensus is that the training standards of Asian operations are poor and that profit is the main goal. Koh Tao in Thailand has been called scuba-factory on this board before.

Having been certified in Thailand (OW) and in the Philippines (AOW) I can not attest to this prejudice. Standards were excellent, training was very thorough.

 

[chinadan]

Snowbear, Boogie et al are of course correct however I've got bags load of sympathy for ChinaDan in what he says above.

I agree with ChinaDan that:

"that there are many divers out there that make the wrong assumption like I did - that a paid dive guide/DM/instructor on any non-class dive is the "boss" and has some amount of responsibility for the group of buddies."

The behaviour of some DMs/Instructors often leave the diver in no doubt who's in charge however right or wrong that might be. While it's easy to criticise the new diver or inexperienced diver, sometimes it would be nice to have great role models enforcing the rules visibly and without exception. During my own training there was little emphasis placed on the individual responsibilities of the diver and I suspect that this might be true for others too.

How do you tell a DM his dive plan is inadequate when you're still wet behind the ears
and don't have the skills and experience he has? You end up trusting the DM and guess what, your dive becomes a trust me dive.

DBulmer hits the nail on the head. Diving in Asia (as I have experienced it) is mostly a paid-for situation, meaning you don't get in your car, drive to your dive site with your buddy and go in.

You are mostly a tourist resort diver which signs up with a dive shop and the DM then calls the shots. In all my diving here the role and responsibility of the DM was never clearly stated, leaving it up to the interpretation of the group's members (and their responsibility to ask clarifying questions). Noone has ever asked this question, which may mean I am the only one not being clear about it. With the help of this discussion I will make sure I clarify this the next time around.

Without wanting to sound prejudiced, but Asia is not like the US where the legal situation probably puts this topic on the platter every day. I recall once being asked to step behind a yellow line in a bicycle repair shop in LA for insurance purposes, something unusual for me back then, hailing from Europe.

I can imagine the clarification of responsibility due to the legal situation in the US and other "settled" countries makes many board members wonder about my misguided view that the dive operation has some responsibility. In Asia, the lines are less clear (expect to have many people wait right under an immigration's "No Waiting" sign).

I also found that of all my instructors, the younger ones were usually very strict, text-book style while the more seasoned ones were more forgiving. Personal experience, not a prejudice against age or experience!

After all, I did remind said instructor of the tired-diver-tow while he was giving the OW class to the pair that ran into trouble...sheer coincident as we surfaced a bit far from the boat and I was making a joke...and he went "Oh, yeah, let's do the tired diver tow"...

I will gain more experience here as I am planning to try a different country/island a month for the next year. Maybe that gives me more data.

 

[Snowbear]

In many cases the responsibilities of the DM are not clearly spelled out - it would do no harm for a DM to spell it out for the inexperienced ie communicate. I agree with you 100% but it's not something that is stressed in training and it could be.

My OW (PADI) instructor stressed that each diver is responsible for their own dive. IIRC, there was even a test wuestion to that effect. That's why I said in my first response that it should have been part of Dan's training. You're right that the DM role is not often spelled out. That's why the diver should ask questions. If a DM or instructor is not willing to answer questions until the diver is satisfied and comfortable making the choice to dive or not, s/he needs to find another occupation (IMnsHO)

How do you tell a DM his dive plan is inadequate when you're still wet behind the ears
and don't have the skills and experience he has? You end up trusting the DM and guess what, your dive becomes a trust me dive.

No, you don't (or shouldn't) end up just trusting the DM and doing a "trust me" dive. Ask questions about the dive and the plan until it's adequate.So what if they think you're a nervous nellie noobie? You are. That's OK. How are you ever going to be comfortable planning and doing dives if all you ever do are trust the DM dives? When I dive with noobs, whether as "just" a buddy or as a paid DM, I'll outline what to expect of the dive site as far as depths and what we might expect to see. I may even make suggestions, but I have the less experienced diver actually plan and conduct the dive (though I may act as the "guide" to find the cool stuff

 

[chinadan]

Since my behind is already sore from all the (justified) kicking.. :07:

At the risk of unwillingly making myself a name as a whiner/complainer, I wanted to get another experience with this dive operation off my chest.

I convinced my girlfriend and her little brother to do a Discover Scuba course to see if they like it (certainly would make holidays a lot easier).

The DM took them both on and offered me to dive along, which I did (I am turning my behind as I write this for another round of "criti-kicking"). The little boy was scared out of his wits because of the depth of 8m below him and could not equalize, clinging to the anchor rope. My girlfriend clung to the anchor line and I kept a distance as to not interfere with the class. All of a sudden she let go and sunk, being hopelessly overweight. Since the DM was tied up with the little boy, I went after her and in a Titanic-style scene grabbed her to prevent her from sinking to the bottom too fast and panic.

The whole time the DM didn't even know what was going on and i was scared my GF would freak out and do something stupid (this all happened at a fish-feeding site with hundreds of fish surrounding us). I calmed her down and eventually the DM got the little boy into the boat and joined us.

After discussing this incident he replied that he knew I was there with her. No need to mention my GF is not going to dive anymore...but I scored some points "rescuing" her...

I guess I should ask myself why I keep going back there. Well, I personally never had any trouble with them as a diver and one of their instructors is an excellent DM, probably so excellent that she contributed to my misconception about responsibilities...

 

[Snowbear]

I can imagine the clarification of responsibility due to the legal situation in the US and other "settled" countries makes many board members wonder about my misguided view that the dive operation has some responsibility.

Well, the dive operation should have some responsibility as far as running a safe operation with well-maintained equipment, meets agency training standards, etc..., but no matter what the country or the culture, as a diver, you should have a personal responsibility for yourself. After all, it's your life and your health - do you really want to completely trust an unknown DM to take care of that for you?