Correct behavior of instructor?

[Iruka]

It's not an ideal situation, but a lot of times you'll have "mixed" groups...people diving for fun along with AOW students or whatever. Some of the AOW dives (like Underwater Naturalist) suit themselves well for this, while others (like Underwater Navigation) tend to disrupt the "normal" flow of an ordinary dive. Generally, if there's no emergency, dangerous surface conditions or whatever, someone surfacing doesn't automatically mean everyone cancels the dive....if the ascent was in an area shallow enough (i.e. good visibility) that I could keep an eye on my divers underwater, I'd check on the surfaced diver/divers and if they wanted to continue the dive, help them descend again, or if they wanted to quit, make sure 1) they were ok, 2) the boat crew could see them and 3) they knew how to get back to the boat safely. Some of this is a judgement call, of course....if ocean conditions were rough, they had a current to swim against (normally we begin the dive INTO the current, so that wouldn't be a factor) or they'd done an uncontrolled ascent or whatever, I'd most likely bring everyone back to the boat. But if it was nothing more than a 50-meter surface swim for a calm diver/divers, I don't see that as a reason to bring everyone up. I saw an instructor a few years ago who had a diver with equalizing problems. While still on the descent line, in swimming pool-like conditions (except with fish), he aborted the entire dive, rather than put just her back on the boat. The other 5 divers didn't think that was very good value for the $90 they paid to do the dive (well, actually $45, since they got to do the second dive.)

 

[Snowbear]

(I am turning my behind as I write this for another round of "criti-kicking").

No need I think you already know the folly of this...:11:

 

[chinadan]

My OW (PADI) instructor stressed that each diver is responsible for their own dive. IIRC, there was even a test wuestion to that effect. That's why I said in my first response that it should have been part of Dan's training. You're right that the DM role is not often spelled out. That's why the diver should ask questions. If a DM or instructor is not willing to answer questions until the diver is satisfied and comfortable making the choice to dive or not, s/he needs to find another occupation (IMnsHO) No, you don't (or shouldn't) end up just trusting the DM and doing a "trust me" dive. Ask questions about the dive and the plan until it's adequate.So what if they think you're a nervous nellie noobie? You are. That's OK. How are you ever going to be comfortable planning and doing dives if all you ever do are trust the DM dives? When I dive with noobs, whether as "just" a buddy or as a paid DM, I'll outline what to expect of the dive site as far as depths and what we might expect to see. I may even make suggestions, but I have the less experienced diver actually plan and conduct the dive (though I may act as the "guide" to find the cool stuff

Snowbear, I like your approach. All dives, except for my cert dives, were planned by the DM. The last time I have seen Dive Tables was during OW course and no matter where I have been, diving goes about trusting the computer of the DM (I have my own). Non-computer divers have, so far, never been asked to do anything like pressure groups, SI after repetitive diving and so on.

Once in a while you find a buddy pair that eagerly fills in their dive log, but in general it is all trust-me dives. I wish (and will ask for) to plan the dives w/ tables and have the DM correct it. I will ask for tide tables, wave heights and so on and see how many dive operators will still like me when they have 10 other customers waiting in line, not asking questions.

Don't get me wrong, I am not being ironic as I firmly believe in learning-by-doing. I will let you and the board know how it goes on my next trip.

My experience so far:

- gather for briefing
- DM explains the dive site, entry and exit points,maximum depth, app. dive time, half-empty pressure, LOA pressure
- buddy team forming
- done

What is missing, what good questions should a beginner like me ask?

 

[chinadan]

It's not an ideal situation, but a lot of times you'll have "mixed" groups...people diving for fun along with AOW students or whatever. Some of the AOW dives (like Underwater Naturalist) suit themselves well for this, while others (like Underwater Navigation) tend to disrupt the "normal" flow of an ordinary dive. Generally, if there's no emergency, dangerous surface conditions or whatever, someone surfacing doesn't automatically mean everyone cancels the dive....if the ascent was in an area shallow enough (i.e. good visibility) that I could keep an eye on my divers underwater, I'd check on the surfaced diver/divers and if they wanted to continue the dive, help them descend again, or if they wanted to quit, make sure 1) they were ok, 2) the boat crew could see them and 3) they knew how to get back to the boat safely. Some of this is a judgement call, of course....if ocean conditions were rough, they had a current to swim against (normally we begin the dive INTO the current, so that wouldn't be a factor) or they'd done an uncontrolled ascent or whatever, I'd most likely bring everyone back to the boat. But if it was nothing more than a 50-meter surface swim for a calm diver/divers, I don't see that as a reason to bring everyone up. I saw an instructor a few years ago who had a diver with equalizing problems. While still on the descent line, in swimming pool-like conditions (except with fish), he aborted the entire dive, rather than put just her back on the boat. The other 5 divers didn't think that was very good value for the $90 they paid to do the dive (well, actually $45, since they got to do the second dive.)

Chris-

what you wrote makes good sense. I was actually happy I could continue the dive as well. The problem was only that the instructor/DM was about 20 m away and below the troubled pair and did not even see them had it not been for me "grabbing" his attention. I guess he could, from this point on, assess that they are going to be OK, but he could have never made it to them w/o endangering himself. The boat crew (1 guy, small dive boat) eventually picked them up, but we were swimming away from the boat and I guess he was following our bubbles, so they got lucky not getting run over by our dive boat...

I later grabbed the DM again to signal LOA, I swear he never turned around once throughout the whole dive.

 

[Snowbear]

My experience so far:

- gather for briefing
- DM explains the dive site, entry and exit points,maximum depth, app. dive time, half-empty pressure, LOA pressure
- buddy team forming
- done

What is missing, what good questions should a beginner like me ask?

-Any hazards to be aware of?
-Do we dive as a group or as individual buddy teams?
-Do you want the group to ascend together or do buddy teams exit individually?
-Is there a recall proceedure?
-Who's my buddy?
Then ask the buddy as part of a casual conversation
(if you grill 'em, they may resent you for it ):
-Their training level
-Their experience level
-Any doubts they have
-How's their gas consumption
-Talk about how to stay together
-Talk about what to do if you have a problem or lose each other
-Hopefully your buddy will want to know the same of you.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but it's late here and I'm pooped...

As a side note - you say the DM tells you what your 1/2 empty and LOA (low on air?) pressures are. Let me ask you this - What does it mean to you when the DM says something like, "Be on the boat with 500psi (or whatever they tell you in bar )?" How do you get there? How do you know when to turn the dive to get there? How do you figure in enough gas for your buddy if s/he manages to run out?

Gas management is a critical skill you need to be able to figure on your own. A search on this board for "Rock Bottom" or "Gas Management" or "Rule of thirds" should yield a tremendous amount of information. But even better would be to get together with an experienced diver and learn the principles.

 

[dbulmer]

Snowbear,
Again I agree with you entirely .... " But even better would be to get together with an experienced diver and learn the principles. "

Don't you mean? - "Get together with an experienced SAFE diver, learn the principles and train safely" I think you'd agree with this - an experienced diver is not always a guarantor of safe diving practice? I know this opens up many questions about what is safe but having been a complete and utter 100% idiot a few months back it's close to my heart! (I broke my leg in the shallow end of a pool - giant stride - did not check the depth of water and the abuse I get is fully deserved!)

 

[miketsp]

I convinced my girlfriend and her little brother to do a Discover Scuba course to see if they like it (certainly would make holidays a lot easier).

The DM took them both on .....etc

One DM for two beginners.
Wow, I never saw a Discover Scuba without a ratio of 1:1 underwater.
That's really stupid. :11:

 

[voop]

Snowbear, Boogie et al are of course correct however I've got bags load of sympathy for ChinaDan in what he says above.

I agree with ChinaDan that:

"that there are many divers out there that make the wrong assumption like I did - that a paid dive guide/DM/instructor on any non-class dive is the "boss" and has some amount of responsibility for the group of buddies."

The behaviour of some DMs/Instructors often leave the diver in no doubt who's in charge however right or wrong that might be.

Just for general information: actually, in some areas this is not just the custom -- it's the law that says that the "DM-type" person is in charge....even to the point of determining depth, time, turn-preasure etc for each individual diver. Agree with it or not, but somewhere that's required behavior.

At least, that's the role of the "directeur de plongee" in France -- as spelled out by some silly lawtext....

As I said: just for general information. I am a big believe in taking responsibility for my own diving....

While it's easy to criticise the new diver or inexperienced diver, sometimes it would be nice to have great role models enforcing the rules visibly and without exception. During my own training there was little emphasis placed on the individual responsibilities of the diver and I suspect that this might be true for others too.

How do you tell a DM his dive plan is inadequate when you're still wet behind the ears
and don't have the skills and experience he has? You end up trusting the DM and guess what, your dive becomes a trust me dive.

Ahh, that's easy. I usually do like this: "Dude, I am not comfortable with X, so I am sitting out this dive / doing Y instead. Any alternative suggestions". The key is the "I am not comfortable" part rather than the "you're wrong and your plan is inadequate".

 

[dbulmer]

Voop,
Points taken.

 

[Bretagne]

Just for general information: actually, in some areas this is not just the custom -- it's the law that says that the "DM-type" person is in charge....even to the point of determining depth, time, turn-preasure etc for each individual diver. Agree with it or not, but somewhere that's required behavior.

At least, that's the role of the "directeur de plongee" in France -- as spelled out by some silly lawtext....

partly true, but more complicated like that.
The "Directeur de Plongée" is usually on the boat, and give general directions for each diver group, consistently with their qualification. True, this can include depth, time, turn pressure etc, but often it is maximum depth and return pressure. for my last dive, it was "do not com back with 20 bars only". He also describe the diving sites, what is to look at, clues for orientation...
The Dive Master ("Guide de Palanquée") is both a dive guide and in charge of the security of the group, because it is used for people whose level of certification says "he will dive OK at this depth, but his experience is not enough to let him organise the dive". Experience is OK for french law when the diver is certified for rescue training for this depth.
The "palanquée"(=group of diver) is by law never more that 4 divers + 1 or 2 DM, or 3 divers if divers are autonomous. Padi training focuses on the buddy system, our training focuses on the "palanquée" within which divers are paired if there are at least 4 people, but which dives "as a whole" (every one surface together, every one stays at the DM depth, every one does the longer deco stop, even the divers who do not need it -yes rec diving here includes (light) deco-diving, I have never heard any direction on "no deco" ...).

This means that on the boat, there can be a lot of dive masters. One or several for the baptème (~discover scuba) divers, one or more for the p* divers, one or more for the p** who will dive between 20 and 40 m (between 66 and 132 ft) and recreative divers must not be mixed with courses.
(P* divers are allowed to be autonomous under conditions which are never met in continental France, but often in oversea territories)