Deep Stops Increases DCS

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Let's see if I've got it right. This is how I - neither a decompression scientist nor a tech diver - understand the facts:
  • Bubble models generally emphasize deeper stops at the cost of shallow stops, so for the same decompression stop time, a bubble model will distribute the deco time at greater depths compared to a dissolved gas model
  • The NEDU study investigated two different decompression profiles with the same total run time, but with a different distribution of shallow vs deep stops
  • The NEDU study showed quite unequivocally that the deep stop preference profile lead to significantly more incidents of DCS than a shallow stop profile did
  • One of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "A") has a clear financial interest in one of the most widespread bubble models
  • Two of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "B" and "C") are public employees; one is a University faculty member, the other is employed by the US Navy
  • A is extremely critical to conclusions drawn from the NEDU study (i.e. that redistributing stops from shallow to deep depths is not a good idea and will lead to a higher risk of DCS)
  • A accuses B for not being objective due to... I'm not quite sure of what. And for misrepresenting facts, which is about as much anathema in academia as taking bribes from mafia bosses is among police officers.
  • B accuses A for outright obfuscation, claiming that A is spouting... for want of a better term, let's use the one described in Harry G. Frankfurt's fairly well-known essay.

Is this a decent summary?
 
Out of curiosity, when I buy the VPM upgrade on my Shearwater, I assume that is (partly) a licensing fee. To whom does that money go?
i.e. who actually owns VPM as an algorithm?
 
Out of curiosity, when I buy the VPM upgrade on my Shearwater, I assume that is (partly) a licensing fee. To whom does that money go?
i.e. who actually owns VPM as an algorithm?

My bet is that it goes directly to Lynn :)
 

My bet is that it goes directly to Lynn :)
Someone's gotta compensate for putting up with Bruce. Worth it at twice the price.

:flowers:
 
Let's see if I've got it right. This is how I - neither a decompression scientist nor a tech diver - understand the facts:
  • Bubble models generally emphasize deeper stops at the cost of shallow stops, so for the same decompression stop time, a bubble model will distribute the deco time at greater depths compared to a dissolved gas model
  • The NEDU study investigated two different decompression profiles with the same total run time, but with a different distribution of shallow vs deep stops
  • The NEDU study showed quite unequivocally that the deep stop preference profile lead to significantly more incidents of DCS than a shallow stop profile did
  • One of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "A") has a clear financial interest in one of the most widespread bubble models
  • Two of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "B" and "C") are public employees; one is a University faculty member, the other is employed by the US Navy
  • A is extremely critical to conclusions drawn from the NEDU study (i.e. that redistributing stops from shallow to deep depths is not a good idea and will lead to a higher risk of DCS)
  • A accuses B for not being objective due to... I'm not quite sure of what. And for misrepresenting facts, which is about as much anathema in academia as taking bribes from mafia bosses is among police officers.
  • B accuses A for outright obfuscation, claiming that A is spouting... for want of a better term, let's use the one described in Harry G. Frankfurt's fairly well-known essay.

Is this a decent summary?


Let's see if I've got it right. This is how I - neither a decompression scientist nor a tech diver - understand the facts:

  • Bubble models generally emphasize deeper stops at the cost of shallow stops, so for the same decompression stop time, a bubble model will distribute the deco time at greater depths compared to a dissolved gas model


WRONG. VPM-B does not suffer from this.

  • The NEDU study investigated two different decompression profiles with the same total run time, but with a different distribution of shallow vs deep stops


WRONG. Nedu test investigated a long shallow stop, vs an offset version. NO tech styledeep stops anywhere under test.


  • The NEDU study showed quite unequivocally that the deep stop preference profile lead to significantly more incidents of DCS than a shallow stop profile did

WRONG. It showed us what we already know - what every PADI multilevel diver should (or used to) know - extended shallow time, multilevel time, needs more deco / has less NDL. But it did NOT test deeps stops !


  • One of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "A") has a clear financial interest in one of the most widespread bubble models

Yes, A also can't stand BS, or having deco ruined forever, by a one sided interested who got his ideas turned down by his peers in 2008. Or the fake arguments that B creates to justify his ambitions.


  • Two of the most active participants in this thread (let's call them "B" and "C") are public employees; one is a University faculty member, the other is employed by the US Navy


Yes, but B is acting privately, using influence to bully the public, outside of the peer review system. The unsuspecting public soaks up the attention

  • A is extremely critical to conclusions drawn from the NEDU study (i.e. that redistributing stops from shallow to deep depths is not a good idea and will lead to a higher risk of DCS)

WRONG. A agrees with official conclusion of nedu test - offsetting and shifting shallow stops has no benefit. But A rejects any implied application to real world tech dive practices - the nedu test did not test or apply here.


170ft_30_air_NEDU_1v2.jpg


Does the Green area equal the big pink area? No.

Nedu test did not check or test deep stops / VPM-B model. Nedu test does not represent deep stops.

.
 
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Thanks for these gems. I have to highlight them as even just skimming them has been great... anyone who has a little time and any interest whatsoever in historical context should really check these links out!

no, Ross, David Doolette posted on that list in 2001, just look it up. He's one of the very few deco scientists on that list (I also saw Michael Powell and Alf Brubakk).

Nevertheless I think there are some pearls of wisdom that the interested reader might enjoy to read:

Alf Brubakk wondering why some core VPM bubble model parameters are not realistic:
Re: Surface tension values - - - from Alf Brubakk on 2003-04-06 (DecoList (2003 onwards))

Bill Hamilton saying he just fooled around with these parameters and picked by feeling: gamma? from RW Hamilton on 2003-04-04 (DecoList (2003 onwards))

Richard Pyle on how he really ascends (he doesn't use "Pyle stops" and proposed the method only "to give divers something to think about on the way up"):
RE: methods to set deep stop depth from Richard Pyle on 2007-05-18 (DecoList (2003 onwards))

and last but not least, one rare gem of a non-obfuscated text by Wienke (though lacking a bit in etiquette):
MORE: The Dancing *Whooo-Ya* Masters from Brwswe_at_aol.com on 2002-03-08 (DecoList (2002))
 
Interestingly the NEDU study wasn't the first time we'd heard that bubble models were calculating incorrect shallow stops. This is what Mark Ellyatt wrote about his experiences trying RGBM on the first generation Abyss computer in (I believe) 2003:

I had used the RGBM algorithm many times before, both shallow (60-90m) and deep (120m-260m), contrary to Bruce Wienke's website I received DCS every time using the RGBM algorithm. Satisfactory results were obtained only after manually adding significant extra shallow decompression stops, usually in the order of hours of extra time. I have used the VPM a/b algorithms since they became available, also with similar results, only the version using VPMbE (2005) with maximum conservatism provides acceptable decompression times.

Granted Mark wasn't making the same kind of dives most of us are but due to the fact that his dives were that much more extreme, we have actual evidence that RGBM and VPM weren't calculating long enough shallow stops for at least this one diver ... The interesting thing about this to me is that the NEDU study seemed to suggest the same conclusion that had been reached a few years early by people trying it in practice.

Hey Diver0001,

With regard to sufficient shallow time, I’ve seen it posted a lot that VPM "scales consistently and in the right proportions" as you go deeper and stay longer. I have another perspective on that idea. See the chart below.

upload_2016-8-18_8-12-51.png


Each of the lines shown on the chart represents the allowed supersaturations for each compartment upon surfacing from dives with progressively longer bottom times (all 200ft dives in this example). For this discussion the actual dive parameters (i.e. CCR or OC, depth, set point, gases) don't matter much. This pattern is reproducible in deeper dives when the effect of the critical volume algorithm (CVA) in VPM wears off. The CVA is that part of VPM that allows it to better reflect NDLs and lighter deco requirements. The important thing to understand about the chart is that we're seeing how VPM-B adjusts in the face of increasing gas loads due to the longer bottom times and deeper dives many tech divers are familiar with.

I added the black-dashed line to highlight something. Notice that the peak supersaturation that the diver is allowed to surface with doesn't change (or changes very little) as the bottom time increases (following CVA wear-off). Even staying within VPM theory you have to see the problem with that.

Suppose you execute the 40 min dive. Based on the chart the peak SS at surfacing is in compartment 11. If you move to a bottom time of 60 min C13 has the peak SS at surfacing. C13's half-time is about 63% longer than C11's. That is, C13 will stay supersaturated far longer because it's a slower compartment. But what has VPM done? It's kept the supersatuation at which the diver is allowed to surface the same (oh, there may be minor differences, but they are effectively equal as shown on the chart). VPM methodology allows the same supersaturation upon surfacing even though it must be endured for a much longer time. This approach can only do one thing --- increase risk. The diver, then, must know to increase VPM's conservatism or substantially pad shallow stops to adjust for this, or accept the certainty of increasing risk, because VPM is doing nothing on its own to make that adjustment. The lack of sufficient shallow time is directly related to this "feature".

So in response to the idea that VPM "scales correctly and in the right proportions" I would say the following. It's not so much that VPM doesn't scale correctly, it's that it doesn't scale AT ALL, at least in the sense discussed above. There is no attempt in the face of mounting gas loads in slower compartments to decrease allowed supersaturations to reflect the far longer SS exposure.

In comparison, GF does reduce allowed surfacing supersaturations as slower compartments enter the picture because Buhlmann's M-values get smaller as compartment half-times get longer. I'm not saying it adjusts perfectly to keep risk the same. But it does reduce allowed supersaturations as more gas is loaded in slower compartments. So in that sense GF "scales better and in better proportions" than VPM.

For comparison, see the charts below for GF and for a Navy Mk16 set of dives. Notice the negative slope in peak allowed surfacing SS as dives become more extreme and slower compartments become more important. Again, I can't claim the adjustment is enough to keep risk the same, but at least they're playing the right game.
upload_2016-8-18_8-28-8.png



For completeness, this pattern occurs when dives are extreme enough to minimize the effect of the CVA and long enough so that, for any given depth, the first stop isn't changing drastically as time increases-- basically technical dives with longer decompressions.
 
Let's see if I've got it right. This is how I - neither a decompression scientist nor a tech diver - understand the facts:
  • Bubble models generally emphasize deeper stops at the cost of shallow stops, so for the same decompression stop time, a bubble model will distribute the deco time at greater depths compared to a dissolved gas model
Almost. Bubble models like Thalmann and RGBM do two things.

1) they distribute the time deeper and
2) they calculate shorter total deco obligations on the unverified assumption that going shallow "too fast" was causing bubbles that needed to be "fixed" (which takes time) and that the deep stops would stop those nasty bubbles from forming at all.

The NEDU study tested that particular assumption and it was proven to be false (or not entirely true).

I ran the dives in question on vplanner the first time I saw them and vplanner did not calculate a dive anywhere near as dangerous looking as the Thalmann algorithm generated but in subsequent bouts of "fiddling" partly as a result of online duscussions VPM was shown to have the same tendencies given sufficiently extreme dives.

does that mean that VPM is dangerous? It has a good track record for run of the mill tech diving so I would say "probably not." As I mentioned above Mark Ellyatt said to me that for mainstream dives to about 100m it probably doesn't matter much which algorithm you use. You're measuring by eye and cutting with an axe anyway (borrowed that phrase from Pyle)

That said, it is proving difficult to address this because it has become a question of paradigm thinking and protecting various realated interests.
 
FACT: Mitchell and Doolette [...]have never publicly put the blame of those poor practices above, on where they originate. Instead they just blame it all on VPM-B and bundle all those problems on me.
I must have missed that. Cite, please.
 
As a lurker....not a technical diver anymore, and primarily using tables and computers to stay within NDL limits, I have been hesitant to post in this forum. But there must be lots of other lurkers reading this thread (and maybe cross referencing the RBW thread and reading the full NEDU study and some of the other references. The challenge for many of us who can only partially follow the rapid back and forth discussion that at least appears to be deeply technical is which "side" of the divide do I ultimately believe is best for me to accept? Keeping in mind that either side of this argument, for me, is consulting advice, and subject to future revision at any time that I perceive better consulting advice becomes available.

I had the privilege a few months ago of seeing a presentation by Adam Steltzner, who also has written a book called "The Right Kind of Crazy"; I'm including that attribution because what comes next is paraphrasing something Adam has said and written about. The advice is:

Try to separate the ideas from the people.

As I go back to try to reread this thread it's nearly impossible to do that, but still, if I just look for the parts I do believe I can understand and try to not see or care who posted, and test the postings for self-consistency, and test the threads for the small part of the technical discussion I think I can follow well, and whenever I can - find an externally verifiable reference, it has given me a way to make my own decision about which side of this argument I am inclined to support.

Even though the thread title contains "Deep Stops", for me this is more general, and the more general discussion is "Gas Content" modelling vs. "Bubble" modelling as the best approach for me to rely on at this point in time to establish my own decompression strategies.
 
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