Devils Throat TAKE LIGHT

[Christi]

I have ALOT of thoughts on this, but I don't really want to get involved in a drama of speculation and what people assume was or wasn't done, etc.

I mean no disrespect here, just an honest question to Mike, Dan and others who feel the DM/DO is to blame for this accident...Have you ever dove in Cozumel and have you ever dove Devil's Throat? I honestly don't know if you have, which is why I am asking.

If you have dove Devils Throat, did you dive doubles, lines, etc.?

I know the entire story and I know the DM/Instructor and DO very well, both personally and professionally. I know their policies and dive philosophies. I can say unequivocally that neither this DM nor the DO are irresponsible, reckless, or anything else of that nature. They take diving and safety very seriously and would not have taken these divers to Devils Throat if they were not comfortable or confident with their skills and abilities, including SAC rates. BTW, Liquid Blue uses steel 120’s.

So, before anyone wants to pick apart the DO or the DM or the OP, I would encourage you to ask yourself how much you truly know about the divers, the DO, the specific dive itself, and diving in Cozumel in general.

I know the diver and his wife learned alot from this, more than what he shared. Just because he focused on the positive points of the happy ending and excellent care his wife received, does not mean that he doesn't realize what went wrong, etc. I know they do.

Finally, I will go so far as to say that if you think that the DO or DM were irresponsible or reckless in any way for taking ScubaTexas53 and his wife on this dive, then you have to say that of virtually every dive operation in Cozumel…and if you think they were reckless, well, that just makes me laugh. Liquid Blue operates under some of the highest standards on the island, and perhaps in the industry. It is completely unfair to pass blind judgment on them or to put blame on them over one version of an incident without having all of the varibales, etc.

BTW, this is not a dive that requires or warrants cave gear, doubles, or lines. It is not a dive to be taken lightly or arrogantly, and it is a dive that requires strong, comfortable, competent and responsible divers who can communicate and follow a solid dive plan. BTW, before I get ripped apart for my criteria being too low for this dive, those are simply examples and my list is not exhaustive.

Again, as I said in a previous post, I am not making light of the accident or the dive...I just feel that some of you are making assumptions and unfairly attacking the OP and the DO/DM without knowing all you need to know.

Peace...dive safe...cherish every day...etc. etc.

 

[DandyDon]

Glad that the incedent ended happily. Even so, the DM, hubby and certainly the wife could have some anxious feelings to follow. Hope not, but if so - please don't bluff, seek appropriate assistance in dealing.

FWIW, I take at least one light on every dive. In addition to safety concerns and lighting up swim throughs, a light comes in handy for peering into crevices and under overhangs for critters. My wife/buddy and I have a routine we use in swim throughs; if I am behind her, I keep shining my light out in front of her to signal that I am OK so she doesn't have to look back to check on me. She does the same if she is behind me.

Yeah, I always carry a light on day dives, usually two - as my BC has a side pocket for each one, so why not. Twice I have had one fail (yeah, my fault) on day dives I didn't really expect to need one, but was glad I had a spare. I like your approach of second diver shinning light in front of first diver. Never heard of that one; will use in on swim thru plans.

Devils Throat is an interesting dive, altho not my fav there. I like sea life too much to enjoy the throat like many do. Some may like to do it without a light, but take one anyway, just in case. I don't like doing it without my pony, but then I don't like going below 50 ft without it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have ALOT of thoughts on this, but I don't really want to get involved in a drama of speculation and what people assume was or wasn't done, etc.

I mean no disrespect here, just an honest question to Mike, Dan and others who feel the DM/DO is to blame for this accident...Have you ever dove in Cozumel and have you ever dove Devil's Throat? I honestly don't know if you have, which is why I am asking.

If you have dove Devils Throat, did you dive doubles, lines, etc.?

I have not dived devils throat but I've dived a bunch of other "open water diver safe caves" as well as quit a few other caves. I'm still trying to figure out what makes the "open water diver safe" caves so different.

As far as equipment, I almost always have doubles if I'm anywhere near 100 ft and always in an overhead. I don't go into an overhead without lights, lines or redundant breathing equipment.

I know the entire story and I know the DM/Instructor and DO very well, both personally and professionally. I know their policies and dive philosophies. I can say unequivocally that neither this DM nor the DO are irresponsible, reckless, or anything else of that nature. They take diving and safety very seriously and would not have taken these divers to Devils Throat if they were not comfortable or confident with their skills and abilities, including SAC rates. BTW, Liquid Blue uses steel 120’s.

Given what happened, it seems they were a bit overconfident in this case.

So, before anyone wants to pick apart the DO or the DM or the OP, I would encourage you to ask yourself how much you truly know about the divers, the DO, the specific dive itself, and diving in Cozumel in general.

I know this about cozumel, taking divers on dives that are beyond their experience and training is par-for-the course down there, as it is in some other resort areas.
Since you know more about Cozumel, please explain what it is that makes Cozumen diving exempt from what is generally considered "safe diving practices" in reagrds to depth and overheads.

I know the diver and his wife learned alot from this, more than what he shared. Just because he focused on the positive points of the happy ending and excellent care his wife received, does not mean that he doesn't realize what went wrong, etc. I know they do.

Finally, I will go so far as to say that if you think that the DO or DM were irresponsible or reckless in any way for taking TexasDiver and his wife on this dive, then you have to say that of virtually every dive operation in Cozumel…

I think I already said that.

and if you think they were reckless, well, that just makes me laugh.

It will take a little more practice before I'll be able to laugh in light of stories like this.

Liquid Blue operates under some of the highest standards on the island, and perhaps in the industry. It is completely unfair to pass blind judgment on them or to put blame on them over one version of an incident without having all of the varibales, etc.

Highest standards in the industry? Would you clasify devils throat as a cavern or a cave? Why don't we compare the standards of Liquid Blue to those of the NSS-CDS, the NACD or any other cavern/cave training agency? PADI is big down there, why don't we use PADI cavern standards?

BTW, this is not a dive that requires or warrants cave gear, doubles, or lines.

First of all it's my understanding that some of the guides do equip themselves in "cave gear" (lights, long hoses ect). Do they know that they don't need it?

Since you are stating that cave equipment isn't needed in this cave maybe it's time to state what your cave diving background is and how you came to this conclusion. What makes this overhead so different from others?

It is not a dive to be taken lightly or arrogantly, and it is a dive that requires strong, comfortable, competent and responsible divers who can communicate and follow a solid dive plan.

Going into an overhead without the right skills and equipment is taking a dive lightly and arrogantly.

BTW, before I get ripped apart for my criteria being too low for this dive, those are simply examples and my list is not exhaustive.

Again, as I said in a previous post, I am not making light of the accident or the dive...I just feel that some of you are making assumptions and unfairly attacking the OP and the DO/DM without knowing all you need to know.

Peace...dive safe...cherish every day...etc. etc.

Lets put this in perspective. This isn't a very challenging cave dive. It's not a complex system, it's not very deep and the water is warm and clear. On the other hand, it's a significant overhead, at or near, the depth limts of many OW divers. Combine the two and you get incidents like this.

For the record, I don't at all think that the dive op is the primary responsible party. Divers are responsible for themselves and their buddies.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I like your approach of second diver shinning light in front of first diver. Never heard of that one; will use in on swim thru plans.

GREAT EXAMPLE! That isn't a technique that's unique to any one here. It's standard regular every day stuff that's taught in cave/cavern and tech training. Had the OP and his wife been so equiped (assuming they were buddies on the dive) they would have never become seperated.

When traveling single file You know your buddy is behind you because you can see his/her light. Swapping OK's or signaling for attention or that there is a problem is a simple matter light movements. Single file or side by side, proper light use provides CONTINUOUS buddy contact. It works great in all but the most brightly lighted waters and it's certainly standard procedure in caverns and caves.

 

[pilot fish]

Tex, I said ignore the tone, not the content. Some of the advice you received is very sound and I fear you might be missing some of it. A light was NOT your major problem on that dive, it was your buddy skills to your wife. I also think your wife was not mentally prepared for this dive. Did she do the dive just to please you? That is not fair to her.

Your "take aways" should not be what kind of doc you see or insurance you have, after the fact stuff, but a realistic approach to a dive, before you do it.

I wonder if you could address how it was that you and your wife were not together? Was she your buddy on this dive? Your main concern here is not lack of lights, DM, DO BUT YOUR RESPONSIBILTY TO YOUR WIFE, YOUR DIVE BUDDY.

As info, both my wife and I spent a week diving the Cenotes south of Playa del Carmen. We had enough instruction and dives to get our cert but I didn't want to pay the dough for the cert. It's not about the training!! My posting was meant to share an experience. We learned many things from the experience and as I said before, the take aways were -

Take a light into the Devils Throat, dive with a trained dive op, go to San Miguel Clinic if you need med attention, request Dr. Piccolo for dive related issues, have DAN coverage, ENJOY EVERY MOMENT YOU HAVE, LIFE IS FRAGILE!!! BE GRATEFUL!!!

If folks who read this can benefit, great, if not, that's a choice they can make.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, it's not the content of your post but the tone. I think there is a way to get your great points across without pouring salt in his wounds. No, you should not shine sun up his gromit and tell him all is ok and he seems to have learned his lesson, not sure that's the case, but a bit softer approach will get more results from him, I would guess.

As someone said, a light was not his big problem, but his lack of buddy skills to his wife. It's not easy for a person to come on this Board and admit some mistakes and ask for advice. I wish we could be helpful without the scorn. MVHO

Well, in dark and especially when traveling single file, light use is an important part of buddy skills.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see where the OP asked for any advice. I read where he gave advice but I didn't see him ask for any.

 

[Christi]

Quick apology to TexasDiver. I edited my post above but wanted to make sure that people reading my post realize I was referring to ScubaTexas53 and not TexasDiver.

I have boats to get out...or not (still very windy)...I'll catch up with this later.

 

[TSandM]

I'm sort of morbidly fascinated with this thread.

A diver went into an overhead, got disoriented, got stuck, aspirated water, lost consciousness, was brought to the surface from over 100 feet down, required CPR and survived. This is an AMAZING outcome.

The diver's spouse is happy that she was rescued and so well cared for (and she was!) and would do the same dive again. That flabbergasts me.

Something went really, really WRONG on that dive. In medicine, if something goes really, really wrong, we spend a lot of time looking at the incident to identify the precipitating causes and to formulate a plan to keep that sequence of events from happening again. It seems to me that a nearly lethal dive like this should spark the same kind of dispassionate inquiry and uncompromising honesty.

Depth, probable narcosis, overhead environment, inadequate illumination and buddy separation all seem to me to be probable players in this incident.

I'll tell you one thing -- I'm headed for Cozumel in March. I'm going to do a cavern course while I'm there. But I will not do this described dive. I know my limits.

 

[Mawg]

I have not dived devils throat........

But you are obviously an EXPERT DIVER who knows everything about diving so let me ask you this question; .... Does a dead horse float or sink?

 

[MMM]

Something went really, really WRONG on that dive. In medicine, if something goes really, really wrong, we spend a lot of time looking at the incident to identify the precipitating causes and to formulate a plan to keep that sequence of events from happening again. It seems to me that a nearly lethal dive like this should spark the same kind of dispassionate inquiry and uncompromising honesty.

Ah, yes. Root cause analysis of critical incidents. I'm intimately familiar with the concept. In fact, my department introduced legislation on the mandatory reporting of critical incidents in health care facilities, the legal requirement to do root cause analysis, and to share any pertinent the findings throughout our provincial health care system. We also legally protect the analysis and findings of critical incident reports from being used as evidence in litigation. As you say, it must be conducted dispassionately and honestly, without finger-pointing or recrimination, or people will stop coming forward and will try and cover up. I'm not suggesting any of those things are happening on this thread - just clarifying the process for those who might not be familiar with it.