Difference between cave diving and cavern diving

[kensuf]

IMO, the main difference between a PADI cavern course and the cavern courses from the major cave diving agencies is the primary purpose of the course. I am in theory a PADI cavern instructor, but living in Colorado with no caverns nearby, I have never taught the course. As I see it, the primary purpose of the PADI cavern course is to make recreational divers safe divers in a typical cavern. That is how I would approach the class.

Respectfully speaking, here is the problem with that approach. The minute something goes wrong, those cavern graduates are in a cave environment.

By definition, there are no caverns without sunlight. An errant fin kick causing a silt out, or some event inside of the cave system (either natural or man made) causing a loss of natural daylight puts divers into that cave environment.

Two or three years ago there was an event inside the cave system that reduced the visibility in the "Ginnie Springs Ballroom" to one or two feet. The ballroom is considered a "safe cavern for openwater divers," but it wasn't on that day.

I have also done deco in caverns that suddenly turned into walls of mud because of the actions of another team further in the system.

And of course we've all heard stories about cavern certified divers that went into the cave zone for just a little peek.

If every training agency gave the environment the respect it is due, and treated a cavern course as step 1 of a cave program, the training would provide the basic tools for survival whether or not the graduate decided to pursue cave diving.

BTW, I've been doing cave diving accident analysis for a long time, and have even published some material on the subject (google it if you like), and I have a pretty good understanding of the concepts, risks, and hazards. And just like it was when the little blue book was first published, training (or lack thereof) is still number one.

 

[swimmer_spe]

Everyone has given me some great insight.

From those Cave divers: Since PADI has the shortest penetration distance, does that mean they are the safest? Why was the boundary drawn?

When I venture into Cavern Diving, I would want to do the Cenotes. Of all the pictures that I have seen, the openings are the most stunning.

When I go, I plan to do about 5 days worth of diving, both ocean and caverns.

When you get your OWC, you can dive with others who have the same certification or higher. With Ice diving, You can dive with anyone who is certified in Ice diving.
Once I have my Cavern diving certification, does that mean I am now certified to dive with others who are cavern certified to the limits of our certification?

 

[Subcooled]

What is the difference between a cave and a cavern?

Can you see the sun? Easy dive back to the surface? The cavern zone is a "safer" zone where you can screw up a little bit without dying. It's not a swimming pool though, but not overly dangerous either. Getting lost (and the panic to follow) is the obvious concern. Narcosis (confusion, again getting lost etc etc etc) is also a concern.

Why is it that they cannot have all overhead environments be the same? You mess up on an ice dive and you may be found when the ice breaks up.

Well, they are, but then commerce happened. Why sell one course when you can sell ice+cavern separately?

There are real differences, though. Ice diving certification is usually done using surface tended rope. Cavern diving is usually done using a reel. These types of diving are different, and with different problems. I have done both, and some problems in ice diving do not exist in other types of cavern diving, and vice versa. Ice diving is specific to far north/south and not the rest of the world so maybe it is better to have a separate ice diving course.

---------- Post added December 25th, 2014 at 01:44 AM ----------

Since PADI has the shortest penetration distance, does that mean they are the safest? Why was the boundary drawn?

Safety does not come from an agency, it comes from your attitude, and from your need to not be a hero.

Once I have my Cavern diving certification, does that mean I am now certified to dive with others who are cavern certified to the limits of our certification?

Isn't that obvious?

 

[swimmer_spe]

Isn't that obvious?

No, hence the questions.

 

[Subcooled]

op's post "mildly claustrophobic." I would not recommend cave diving to that person. Ever.

Not so fast.

Unfamiliar things are scary. Proceed cautiously. Mild claustrophobia might be just that (which makes cave diving a bad idea), or it might be fear of the unknown. How many of us have not been scared of cycling when we first learned it? Cavern diving allows one to try easy cave diving. Learn to know you fears and do it without risk. If you really have claustrofobia, then find something more comfortable to do.

I am afraid of falling yet I find rope climbing fun, and I feel safe on the rope. But then I am attached.

 

[kensuf]

Everyone has given me some great insight.

From those Cave divers: Since PADI has the shortest penetration distance, does that mean they are the safest? Why was the boundary drawn?

The 130' linear boundary is actually the historical limit of cavern diving, which dated back to the NACD and NSSCDS programs based in North Florida of the late 70s/early 80s. However, as cavern tours started to become popular in the cenotes of Mexico, which are readily suited for further penetrations while remaining within the daylight zone, the standards were changed. This change happened around the mid-90s, probably in 96/97 (130' was still the limit when I took cavern in spring '94, but I distinctly remember it being changed by '97).

Once I have my Cavern diving certification, does that mean I am now certified to dive with others who are cavern certified to the limits of our certification?

Yes. And someone certified at a higher level (full cave, for instance) can dive with you as long as you stay within the limits of cavern training:

100' max depth
200' total penetration (That means 100' deep and 100' horizontal, 70' deep/130' horizontal, etc)
Must be in daylight zone
Run a continuous guideline
Use no more than 1/3rd of the smallest volume for penetration
No Decompression
No restrictions (restrictions mean you can not travel side by side)

Best of luck to you!

 

[victorzamora]

Edd does actually make my list. Like I said, "that's most of them, but not all of them". Can't remember everyone.

If you're thinking about taking Cavern from someone not on my list, and you want an honest opinion, let me know. I'll tell you whether they suck or not.

Yeah, Pete doesn't hold back the punches!!

 

[Peter Guy]

Superlyte -- have to chuckle a bit at your list as it doesn't appear to include any instructors who work out of a little shop with the initials E.E. Or are they not in "North Florida?"

 

[Superlyte27]

Peter, I'm sure those guys could be great instructors. I just don't know any of them, as they aren't really willing to let me sit in on classes and observe for myself.

Earlier this year, I asked two of the instructors at that shop if I could come and see what you guys were all about. I was told if I brought GUE 6 students, then I could sit in on a Fundies Class.

Sorry man, if I can't see what you guys do first hand, is it really fair of me to say I could recommend you?

 

[lv2dive]

Just to be fair, Dan Patterson teaches (as far as I know) for NSS-CDS and NACD so there *are* some non-gue options at EE as well. I took my intro and apprentice with Dan and would recommend him (along with some of the other people mentioned on this thread.)

Peter, I'm sure those guys could be great instructors. I just don't know any of them, as they aren't really willing to let me sit in on classes and observe for myself.

Earlier this year, I asked two of the instructors at that shop if I could come and see what you guys were all about. I was told if I brought GUE 6 students, then I could sit in on a Fundies Class.

Sorry man, if I can't see what you guys do first hand, is it really fair of me to say I could recommend you?