Difference between cave diving and cavern diving

[tursiops]

Now I understand: hearsay from Litehedded is not OK but hearsay from Superlyte is fine.

 

[LiteHedded]

Superlyte is a big deal. Just ask superlyte.

 

[PfcAJ]

#200.

 

[Superlyte27]

What heresay are we referring to? Do you recommend things you can't personally attest to?

What some of you guys don't know is that there is supposed to be some new animosity between pfcaj and litehedded and me. Not sure why, as I have always liked these guys. Unless it's because our two groups are on opposite sides of a struggle. The problem with that as I see it is that Lite and AJ have never done anything to me, and I don't think I've done anything to them, but we're supposed to be enemies because the leaders of our groups are enemies. That's just dumb.

I still like you guys.

 

[gearhound]

Easy boys! Don't start a war on Christmas! I heard on Fox News that there already was one.

 

[boulderjohn]

Respectfully speaking, here is the problem with that approach. The minute something goes wrong, those cavern graduates are in a cave environment.

By definition, there are no caverns without sunlight. An errant fin kick causing a silt out, or some event inside of the cave system (either natural or man made) causing a loss of natural daylight puts divers into that cave environment.

Two or three years ago there was an event inside the cave system that reduced the visibility in the "Ginnie Springs Ballroom" to one or two feet. The ballroom is considered a "safe cavern for openwater divers," but it wasn't on that day.

I have also done deco in caverns that suddenly turned into walls of mud because of the actions of another team further in the system.

And of course we've all heard stories about cavern certified divers that went into the cave zone for just a little peek.

If every training agency gave the environment the respect it is due, and treated a cavern course as step 1 of a cave program, the training would provide the basic tools for survival whether or not the graduate decided to pursue cave diving.

BTW, I've been doing cave diving accident analysis for a long time, and have even published some material on the subject (google it if you like), and I have a pretty good understanding of the concepts, risks, and hazards. And just like it was when the little blue book was first published, training (or lack thereof) is still number one.

I don't think you understood me. I don't think there is anything incompatible between what you wrote and what I said. Perhaps I can explain better.

If a recreational cavern instructor like myself is teaching a class, I teach it with the idea that the student is not going to take a cave-related class after mine. That means that if this person is going to be going into a cavern without a professional guide and something happens, then everything that the diver does under those circumstances will depend upon what was learned from me. That puts a great onus on me to do an excellent job. Once class is over, it is over.

In comparison, when I took cavern, it was the first step in a mutli-step process for which I had paid up front. I was already a technical diver comfortable with doubles and dry suits. I had done many a long hose air share. I had a decent frog kick, modified flutter, etc. We did not know how many days it would take me to get through the first few classes, but the understanding from the start was that I was going through a continuum, and the instructor could plan accordingly. At some point my cavern class morphed into a Basic Cave class. I don't know when that was. There was no announcement.

I do realize that cave instructors do also teach stand alone cavern classes, in which case I suspect that would be motivated similarly to the way I would be--make sure the diver is ready at the end of that class.

 

[LiteHedded]

What heresay are we referring to? Do you recommend things you can't personally attest to?

What some of you guys don't know is that there is supposed to be some new animosity between pfcaj and litehedded and me. Not sure why, as I have always liked these guys. Unless it's because our two groups are on opposite sides of a struggle. The problem with that as I see it is that Lite and AJ have never done anything to me, and I don't think I've done anything to them, but we're supposed to be enemies because the leaders of our groups are enemies. That's just dumb.

I still like you guys.

No problems here dude. Just some of the Sally ward posts lately are a bit junior varsity. Act like you've been there before.

Also Kate is a friend and good diver.

 

[RJP]

Just to be fair, Dan Patterson teaches (as far as I know) for NSS-CDS and NACD so there *are* some non-gue options at EE as well. I took my intro and apprentice with Dan and would recommend him (along with some of the other people mentioned on this thread.)

I did my training with Dan as well - great guy.

 

[DKL]

I know the difference....one is a cavern and one is a cave. One is spelled cave and the other has an extra rn, at the end. See my Mom didn't raise no idiots. (note the awesome double negative...life is good)

 

[TSandM]

Anybody else ever done a dive and gotten entangled three times? I have! And if somebody wrote about it, I'd assume they were poking a little affectionate fun at me, and that's all.

Pete, I love what you wrote. There is no reason why people need to perpetuate old feuds. At the end of the day, we are all divers, and cave divers, and privileged enough to enter a realm most people will never see. I'll save my animosity not for members of other "camps", but for instructors who pass poorly prepared students, and divers who damage caves.