DIR-F Report - Sault Ste. Marie CANADA

[ScubaScott]

Okay guys.... I'm not good with this snip, cut and clip, so I'll just hack away at different responses and let you guys figure it out....

Glock - none of us passed. We were given provisional passes - meaning if we can demonstrate the skills that are done on the 4th dive, to Dan within the next 6 months, we will pass the course. I am not a c-card collector, nor do I want the responsibilities of professional ratings..... but I do want to dive to the best of my abilities, by learning new skills and utililizing new equipment and training. DIRF is an excellent course encompassing it all. Pass or fail - if you practice what is taught in this course, you WILL be a better diver.

I hope this comes out as I'm thinking it..... this course is an introduction to what you need to know to progress in technical diving. The skills you have now, unless you have wreck/cave training, will not suffice in the technical diving world, and you likely don't even know what skills you are supposed to have. I didn't know, nor did I know what to look for in pieces of your kit.
As MHK pointed out, all the requirements are on GUE website, and were also on Dan's website. DiverBrian hit it right on when he said "they show you what you don't know, go practise, come back when you can do it - (edit)

What if the instructor didn't use the word crap, but said something like "Split fins are not very good in Silty environments because of the turbulence they create when moving through water, blah blah blah etc etc.." and that gets shortened to crap on the internet (its a lot easier to type)

.... Yep - sorry everyone, I misled you there. Dan never said the gear was crap, but did explain why different gear had limitations or restrictions or were just plain dangerous. I called it crap for short.

NWGrateful - while yes, most of the gear that was in the "crap", was bought from our one and only LDS, but is also sold at near every store in Canada and the US. While Halcyon seems to be gear of choice for DIR, Dan told us about other products that are similar, namebrands, and told us to try it out. You were right to say that gear is an intergral part of the "wholistic" system, but its not that Halcyon is the end all and be all. And yes, perhaps underwear that traps huge amount of air in your legs because of improper fit, and has no stretch so you can't reach your valves, isn't crap to everyone. But re-read my first post - this course is not for everyone. This course is for the diver interested in technical diving, and technical diving skills. Not for Joe Resort who jumps in at Cozumel once every 2 years.....
I try not to give advice, but if your a fairly serious diver, save the cash for this course and take it. Training like this is better than any piece of gear you can buy.
As far as the "conspiracy theory" of the founders of DIR making profit by selling gear - where do you buy your gear? Did "someone" not make a profit off your purchase? More than likely an LDS that certified you? Who cares where the profit goes. Your right, buisness is buisness. But my LDS doesn't deal with anything "tech", except the overpriced "tech"BC they sold me that cost close to 1-1/2 times what a simple bp/wings setup would cost......

I understand your hesitation and concerns NW, but man, they aren't brainwashers, they are not Amway. All I can say is try it for yourself. I can't see how any serious diver could not learn from this course.......now, back to the slinging........

SS

 

[detroit diver]

SS,

I'll have to disagree with one point you made. DIRF is not for people that want to get into technical diving alone. It's for all types of divers including fish watching, reef cruising recreational divers.

Yes, it is excellent for the technically minded. But everyone can benefit from this class.

 

[ScubaScott]

detroit diver once bubbled...
SS,

I'll have to disagree with one point you made. DIRF is not for people that want to get into technical diving alone. It's for all types of divers including fish watching, reef cruising recreational divers.

Yes, it is excellent for the technically minded. But everyone can benefit from this class.

Absolutely DD, anyone who takes DIRF can benefit from this class. Without a doubt. I was implying that someone who dives a couple times a year, while it would improve thier skills, probably won't fork out the cash for the course and probably doesn't want to hear why they need to improve thier skills.

Any diver looking to be a better diver, would benefit (in huge amounts, I'll add) by taking this course..... I'm very glad I took it, as are the other divers in my class....

SS

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Where to start ...

JeffG ... you claim the link between DIR and Halcyon doesn't exist? Ever heard of Jarrod Jablonski? He's the President of GUE ... that's the agency that trains DIR divers, ain't it? He's also the CEO and co-founder of Halcyon. Those facts are indisputable, and easily verified with the simplest search on the man's name. So how can you say the connection doesn't exist? If I chose to dig a bit deeper, I'll bet I could find other financial connections as well (wanna bet Andrew G owns a piece of Halcyon?) ... either way, I stand by what I said.

Now, I asked "And if requiring students to own certain types of gear isn't trying to sell gear, what is it?" ... to which you answered "A consistent equipment setup throughout a divers career." Of course that's a nice bit of mantra ... but it doesn't answer my question. The diver still has to purchase the equipment, and will in almost every case purchase it from the store doing the training ... or the one recommended by the instructor. There are very few stores and vendors who sell DIR-approved gear, so it narrows the field considerably. By requiring the student to purchase specific gear, at least one purpose of the class is to sell gear. By restricting the type of gear to a very narrow definition of what is "right" gear, the student is steered toward a very small number of potential outlets where it can be purchased. It's a nice bit of marketing, really.

Now to respond to ScubaScott's paragraph ...

"As far as the "conspiracy theory" of the founders of DIR making profit by selling gear - where do you buy your gear? Did "someone" not make a profit off your purchase? More than likely an LDS that certified you? Who cares where the profit goes. Your right, buisness is buisness. But my LDS doesn't deal with anything "tech", except the overpriced "tech"BC they sold me that cost close to 1-1/2 times what a simple bp/wings setup would cost......"

First off, I was certified through the YMCA ... and they don't sell scuba gear. I purchased my gear through a number of different outlets ... doing most of my research online, and making my purchases based on a number of factors that included brand, price, and quality of service. In truth, of the most expensive pieces of gear I wear today, my reg, BCD, drysuit, and dive light all came from different stores.

To answer your question about who cares where the profit goes ... I certainly don't. However, I also don't buy into the theory that the DIR instructors out there are doing what they do simply because they're interested in turning out good divers. Sorry, but it's a business. People do it to make money. In that respect, the DIR trainers and equipment brokers are no different than their non-DIR counterparts.

To respond to something else you said ... Training like this is better than any piece of gear you can buy.

That is true. However, I can also get excellent technical training through my NAUI rep. When I decide to take that kind of training, I don't doubt for a moment that Peter DenHaan can be every bit as effective at teaching me to be an effective technical diver as anyone currently teaching over at 5th D. He can do it by assessing me personally, my goals, my preferences, and my personal style of diving ... rather than trying to stuff me into a "one size fits all" philosophy that has, at it's foundation, a "my way or the highway" approach to diving. Different strokes for different folks ... if you'll pardon my use of the term.

I don't really need to become part of an organization that uses terms like "crap" and "stroke" as part of their training curriculum. And I've heard those terms, and others like them, tossed about over at 5th D ... by staff ... and it's how they lost me as a potential customer. Sorry, I'd prefer a "wholistic" approach that doesn't need to put down those who aren't like them.

Detroit Diver said ... "DIRF is not for people that want to get into technical diving alone. It's for all types of divers including fish watching, reef cruising recreational divers.

That's like saying that everyone would be better off driving a Porsche. While it's fundamentally true, not everyone needs to be that extravagant ... one has to weigh the costs against the benefits. Furthermore, not everyone would be either able or willing to learn from this teaching style.

I've coached and instructed several sports over the years ... hockey, skiing, sailing, and hopefully one day scuba. One thing I've learned from my experiences is that different people learn in different ways. Not everyone would benefit from the DIR-F approach simply because their learning style and their individual needs would differ from yours ... and DIR-F is a very regimented, one-size-fits-all approach to scuba diving. While the fundamentals of dive planning, preparation, and execution are invaluable to every diver, the "wholistic" approach really isn't. Not everyone needs or desires that kind of regimentation in their scuba activities ... nor will the average diver be disadvantaged by not having it. It's entirely possible to be a safe, effective, and fundamentally sound diver without a great deal of what's required by the DIR-F approach.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mgri]

You know I'm still a fairly inexperienced diver and I've been hanging on this site for awhile trying to get back into diving and seeing what is new since my hiatus.

I've read a lot about this DIR stuff and how its the way things should be etc.. I bought the fundamentals book, I've read all the class reports people post and I've checked out the websites about how equipment should be set up a certain way and what not.

You know what, so far it all makes since. the guys at GUE make a strong case when the make statements like, "we changed this after so and so died." It seems like they got tired of seeing friends die and decided to take their practical and safe ideas and make it into a format that was easy and logical enough to pass along to others.

Everyone that has attended one of their course (that I've read) has said its the best scuba course they have every taken. This coming from some of the same people on this board that used to complain about the DIR nazi's.

So far, all the people who have said anything negative about them seem to resent the 'my way or no way' mentality that they preach. No one on this boards that I have read has ever successfully or logically argued against a GUE recommendation. I have not read anyone say 'you should not set up x the DIR way because its not safe and here is why.' The argument seems to boil down to 'there arrogant nazi's'.

So what, If their ideas are valid then steal there ideas and buy non Halcyon equipment. To those who don't like what DIR preaches fine, but if what they say makes since then why throw the baby out with the bath water

 

[JeffG]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Where to start ...

JeffG ... you claim the link between DIR and Halcyon doesn't exist? Ever heard of Jarrod Jablonski? He's the President of GUE ... that's the agency that trains DIR divers, ain't it? He's also the CEO and co-founder of Halcyon. Those facts are indisputable, and easily verified with the simplest search on the man's name. So how can you say the connection doesn't exist? If I chose to dig a bit deeper, I'll bet I could find other financial connections as well (wanna bet Andrew G owns a piece of Halcyon?) ... either way, I stand by what I said.

Yes, JJ is the prez of Halcyon, now did he create GUE to sell Halcyon or did Halcyon come about because of a perceived need that JJ saw?

(Andrew G owns Fifth-d a dive shop, not Halcyon...sorry)

Yes you stand by what you say, but it is a straw man.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

Now, I asked "And if requiring students to own certain types of gear isn't trying to sell gear, what is it?" ... to which you answered "A consistent equipment setup throughout a divers career." Of course that's a nice bit of mantra ... but it doesn't answer my question. The diver still has to purchase the equipment, and will in almost every case purchase it from the store doing the training ... or the one recommended by the instructor. There are very few stores and vendors who sell DIR-approved gear, so it narrows the field considerably. By requiring the student to purchase specific gear, at least one purpose of the class is to sell gear. By restricting the type of gear to a very narrow definition of what is "right" gear, the student is steered toward a very small number of potential outlets where it can be purchased. It's a nice bit of marketing, really.

Yes, a narrow market. But it is not Halycon's. It belongs to lots of other companies. So the rest of your argument is just farting in the wind.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

Now to respond to ScubaScott's paragraph ...
<snip>
First off, I was certified through the YMCA ... and they don't sell scuba gear. I purchased my gear through a number of different outlets ... doing most of my research online, and making my purchases based on a number of factors that included brand, price, and quality of service. In truth, of the most expensive pieces of gear I wear today, my reg, BCD, drysuit, and dive light all came from different stores.

Well, That just swell

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

To answer your question about who cares where the profit goes ... I certainly don't. However, I also don't buy into the theory that the DIR instructors out there are doing what they do simply because they're interested in turning out good divers. Sorry, but it's a business. People do it to make money. In that respect, the DIR trainers and equipment brokers are no different than their non-DIR counterparts.

The conspiracy theory

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

To respond to something else you said ... Training like this is better than any piece of gear you can buy.

That is true. However, I can also get excellent technical training through my NAUI rep. When I decide to take that kind of training, I don't doubt for a moment that Peter DenHaan can be every bit as effective at teaching me to be an effective technical diver as anyone currently teaching over at 5th D. He can do it by assessing me personally, my goals, my preferences, and my personal style of diving ... rather than trying to stuff me into a "one size fits all" philosophy that has, at it's foundation, a "my way or the highway" approach to diving. Different strokes for different folks ... if you'll pardon my use of the term.

No problem. If someone is not GUE, does not mean they are "Bad/Strokes/Etc...."

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

I don't really need to become part of an organization that uses terms like "crap" and "stroke" as part of their training curriculum. And I've heard those terms, and others like them, tossed about over at 5th D ... by staff ... and it's how they lost me as a potential customer. Sorry, I'd prefer a "wholistic" approach that doesn't need to put down those who aren't like them.

GUE does not use "crap" or "stroke" as part of their training curriculum. see The conspiracy theory

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

Detroit Diver said ... "DIRF is not for people that want to get into technical diving alone. It's for all types of divers including fish watching, reef cruising recreational divers.

That's like saying that everyone would be better off driving a Porsche. While it's fundamentally true, not everyone needs to be that extravagant ... one has to weigh the costs against the benefits. Furthermore, not everyone would be either able or willing to learn from this teaching style.

I've coached and instructed several sports over the years ... hockey, skiing, sailing, and hopefully one day scuba. One thing I've learned from my experiences is that different people learn in different ways. Not everyone would benefit from the DIR-F approach simply because their learning style and their individual needs would differ from yours ... and DIR-F is a very regimented, one-size-fits-all approach to scuba diving. While the fundamentals of dive planning, preparation, and execution are invaluable to every diver, the "wholistic" approach really isn't. Not everyone needs or desires that kind of regimentation in their scuba activities ... nor will the average diver be disadvantaged by not having it. It's entirely possible to be a safe, effective, and fundamentally sound diver without a great deal of what's required by the DIR-F approach.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

No one said that it wouldn't be possible. If you are judging DIR by the rantings of internet divers, I would again state that you missed the point.

Jeff

 

[wetman]

Bob,

You either have some bone to pick with something DIR or you're a bit off. I took Dans DIRF course last year and i got the impression that he went out of his way to make a point of mentioning other gear, even stuff he didn't sell. The fact is, the only two main things i see that halcyon makes that fit into the DIR system are lights and wings/harnesses. I happen to have the single and the double setup but i bought them way before i even knew of northern tech. The doubles wings quality i dont think could be beat and the price is well in line with other wings so to buy that wing is only to your benefit ( i dive with a guy that has a diverite classic and the quality difference is quite large - the halcyon double is an incredibly tough wing in comparison). The singles wing quality doesnt impress me as being better or worse than others, but the design does. The donut shape is very nice to use if you use your lower wing deflator because you never even have to adjust your left-right balance after you use it - all your air is just down there when you stick your ass in the air.

As far as lights go - i have the helios 4.5 and woulnd't trade it for anything - thats one halcyon piece i got from Dan and got a decent price and good service and a cadillac quality product. The guys at northern tech are excellent divers but nice guys as well. There would be no reason NOT to buy from them. I know i'll be happy to continue to do so.

The fact is your perception of the "my way or the highway" is a bit off as well. I never got that impression taking that course. I took that course to better myself as a diver and DIRF was a very quick way to see how to do that. The techniques you use there are all benefitial no matter if you go on or not. Who wouldn't want to improve their boyancy or learn cool techniques like backwards finning or the proper way to air share using the long hose while maintaining bouyancy? I don't believe GUE can claim much if any of these techniques as their own but they do package them nicely together in a nice skills improvement course.

DIRF is an excellent start to technical courses because it simplifies your configuration and teaches you proper techniques to move on if you choose to do so. Well before DIRF, i dove with non-gue trained guys that were cave divers and always admired their techniques, skill and simple configurations - i just never really knew why. As i got reading and talking more, their configurations lead to the DIRF course because that was a quick way of jumping into that in a training environment.

I don't see the DIRF course as advertisement other than the fact it is an excellent course taught extremely well. That is enough advertisement in itself and rightfully so. They earn your respect and deserve it.

Your assessment of peoples learning style and not being compatible with DIRF is totally off the mark. This isn't boot camp. And DIRF is about approach, technique and equipment, what does that have to do with learning stile or teaching style? You've been reading too many posts on this board and associating them with the people and courses. Don't. Not only was it a good course but the whole weekend was quite enjoyable. It was no-nonsense in the sense that there is a lot to cover and do in the short time allotted, but the people I had to deal with are all quite enjoyable to be around (both students and instructors) and i think everyone found it fun - which we can't forget is the reason we all dive.

So, there is a reason you read so many positive comments about this course. I'm not sure I have read a negative one here yet actually. If you take a look at the reason most people take it, its because they were looking for something that was missing and this course filled that gap - in other words, they searched it out themselves as opposed to having it advertised to them. I think that is different reasoning than most other courses taken in diving.

steve

 

[Jimmy B]

Well said Steve.

It's just unfortunate that Bob and a few others can't see the forest for the trees. I once heard some one state " I gave them everything for free, and they still complained" How true at times.

JB

 

[ScubaScott]

... some of your reservations and questions were exactly the same as one's that I had. All I can say is take the course and go from there.....

Its like a T-shirt I saw on a punk-rocker on Sunday..... "If I have to explain it, you won't understand......

Take the course Grateful, and you can be the first person to write a bad report about DIR-F

SS

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Honestly, Scuba Scott ... I doubt I'd be writing a bad report about the DIR-F class. As I said initially, I appreciate the quality of divers that come out of the class. I've no doubt at all I'd benefit. There are, however, aspects to the presentation that I'd find a turnoff. That's not from reading the internet ... it comes from knowing a couple dozen of the program's graduates.

I've nothing against DIR, or the DIR-F class. I simply disagree with some of the comments made regarding their motives for teaching the class. No worries ... it wasn't intended as a put-down. You see it as a "movement" ... I see it as a business. That's quite OK ... we can agree to disagree.

Otherwise, the few negatives I've had regarding the program come not from reading the Internet ... but rather from interactions I've had with some of the DIR adherents I've run into ... both at the store and on the beach. I could go into specifics, but I get the sense that would be counterproductive. I will only say that the majority of DIR divers are great people ... and those few who feel the need to proselytize publicly by making foolish comments to and about non-DIR divers are often encouraged to do so by the nature of how the DIR program is marketed to them.

I've nothing at all against the content of the course ... quite the opposite, in fact. I've admiration for the quality of divers they turn out. I do not believe it should be an "evangelical" movement, however. There are alternatives ... and some divers would be better served by taking advantage of those alternatives to learn their skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)