DIR, WKPP, GUE, and Halcyon Part 1 of 3

[jepuskar]

I have a feeling wherever Jarrod is going to post, Genesis will be on his arse every step of the way.

:yelling:

 

[JeffG]

jepuskar once bubbled...
I have a feeling wherever Jarrod is going to post, Genesis will be on his arse every step of the way.

:yelling:

Theres a picture that I could do without

 

[mgri]

Genesis,

I'm like you in that I have picked up some really good tricks, habits, whatever you what to call them, from the whole DIR thing. Like you I also solo dive, more so than I dive with a buddy. Because of this, and a few other DIR things I don't necessarily agree with, I don't think I would ever consider myself a DIR diver. Heck, I dive a complete Hog rig without owning any piece of Halcyon equipment.

Unlike you, I don't disrespect someone I have learned a great deal from by hounding them on why I wouldn't be a 100% DIR diver and nick picking them on the things about their philosophies I disagree with.

What GUE and DIR have done for tech and rec diving is light years beyond what any other Agency or group is doing to advance the sport of diving. For that reason I think GI3, JJ and all the instructors like MHK deserve our respect and thanks.

Mark

 

[TTT]

I don't quite understand what the big deal is. Now as a new diver, and not even old enough to even buy a beer I could be completely wrong, but here is my take on the subject right now. Which could very well change tomorrow. Diving is diving. We all dive because it is something we enjoy, something that is fun to do...right? Now why does it have to be done a certain way? EVeryone is going to have a differant way of looking at things. As far as saftey goes, well you have to be safe. But just because your not A DIR diver doesn't mean your not being safe.

I may be completely missing something here, but I don't see what all the fuss is. Differant strokes for differant folks. just go dive have fun and be safe

my two cents

cheers

Tommy

 

[Atticus]

I agree with most of what Genesis says, and, Mark, I also respect JJ's experience, and would very much like to hear his responses.

I truly don't understand the concepts behind the various bakers dozen articles. It seems like there's a huge gap between what I understand the DIR folks to be describing as computer users, and what I personally do.

I dive a computer, but use it as a bottom timer. I very much like knowing that the computer can get me out of a problem that I didn't predict. I do deep stops (generally produced by VPM-B), a profile written on my slate, etc. But I fail to understand why anyone wouldn't want to have a little guardian angel on their wrist to help them out if they blow it, or at least to alert them that they're doing something that might not be in their best interest.

Does this make me dependent on the computer? I'll agree that it does make me a little bit - perhaps I would do something extra to handle an emergency scenario that I don't do now. What I do now is write out a planned profile, a profile for each lost gas, a bail out profile, and (now, after a little scare) a too long profile. I also come up with a rule of thumb for each dive that for each minute extra on the bottom I will spend x extra minutes in deco.

What other steps would I take if I didn't have the computer? GUE says they have a magic deco formula that works for any depth / any time. Perhaps that would help me not want a computer. I'm just not sure I'm interested in taking another set of tech courses, from another training agency just so I can throw away a piece of dive gear that works for me.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, I just "don't get it" when I hear the DIR folks saying I'm doing it wrong and they're doing it right.

 

[BigJetDriver]

mgri once bubbled...
Genesis,
What GUE and DIR have done for tech and rec diving is light years beyond what any other Agency or group is doing to advance the sport of diving. For that reason I think GI3, JJ and all the instructors like MHK deserve our respect and thanks.
Mark

"In the technical diving sense, "tech" stands for both TECHNIQUE and TECHNOLOGY: the acquisition of esoteric knowledge in the use of state-of-the-art equipment." This quote is from "The Technical Diving Handbook" by Gary Gentile. The emphasis on the two words is mine.

I have quoted this for two reasons attached to those two words, "technique" and "technology", since a lot of this constant debating revolves around both of them.

First, increasingly better technology has made it possible for us as tech divers to do as Gary states: "We make dives to depths and durations once thought of as mad, but which now are commonplace." I, of course, am a fan of technology! One cannot fly the aircraft I fly around the world without being both awed and enthralled by it! We could not do what we do without it!

Second, the word "technique" can have many meanings. In the sense that it can mean "efficient and safe practices", I embrace it! In the sense that it can mean "one must do it this way and only this way", I abhor it!

I was quite impressed with JJ's presentation, as much by its amicable tone as its information. I look forward, as do others, to hearing and learning more about his "movement"!

I have, at times, been accused of being "anti-DIR" by some. I will say this as plainly as I can. THIS IS NOT SO! I have friends who are instructors, particularly in the cave community, who teach and practice those techniques. It works well, and is an efficient style. Further, there is never anything wrong with working to improve one's diving skills and abilities. Some of the things advocated by the DIR group are useful and practical and SHOULD be included in dive training in general, but especially should be included in the training of those who intend to do more advanced diving profiles!

There are, however, certain "spokesmen" for the DIR community whom I object to completely and utterly. My second "hat", if you will, after my flying hat is that of certified police officer and police instructor. In that role, and personally, I have a real objection to the actions of sociopaths. These certain "spokesmen" put forth in print, messages that are so offensive in nature that they can only be described as psychopathic. I object to that, and believe that people properly raised in a polite society will always object to that kind of behavior!

Does this mean that I condemn people who like to dive in the "DIR Style" or who believe that it has something to offer? Certainly not! I SAY AGAIN, CERTAINLY NOT!!!

Does this mean that I will always condemn sociopaths, and those who emulate them? YES!!! ABSOLUTELY, AND ALWAYS YES!!!

There is one person in the DIR camp, however, who manages to transcend the bounds of propriety almost every time he writes!

His comments sometimes are defended as follows:

"Whirling Girl once bubbled...
Even George Irvine, when he's calling you a f***ing idiot, is still trying to help you learn. I respect him for that, even though he can be really rude."

This is where I have to draw the line in the sand. Let's make one thing perfectly clear. George has earned the right, through his diving, to have and express his opinions about diving.

George has NOT earned the right, and, IN FACT NO ONE HAS, to say the savage, foul, and obnoxious things that George has said in print in public forums. The comments that he has made have caused extreme distress and emotional harm to friends and relatives of people who have died. His vicious commentary exceeds all of the bounds of normal and polite society. His complete lack of regard for others, and the standards of society can only be described as sociopathic.

He can be quite pleasant when one meets him in person, and his speeches about diving are both reasonable and instructive. Even his friends decry, however, his Jekyll and Hyde nature when it comes to an internet keyboard.

Whatever his reasons may be, his viciousness transforms his commentary into "hate speech" no different in nature than that spewing from the mouths of Neo-N***s and Ku Klux Klan members, and hate speech is something that we are trying desperately to stamp out in our society!!!

So, at a guess, in reference to the original beginnings of this thread, the ruckus stems not from the more reasoned and lucid advocates (such as JJ himself) of one style or another, but from those more radical in their approach!

Again, I look forward to hearing more from JJ on the background and evolution of what we call DIR today!
:box:

 

[Straggler Dave]

Jarrod once bubbled...
I find this regrettable in that from my perspective it was this lack of discipline with respect to gas selection and team diving that were largely responsible for his death. I mean no disrespect to Sheck, his memory or accomplishments. I cared deeply for him and respected both his abilities and personality tremendously; it saddens me all the more that he was the victim of such a needless tragedy.

Hi JJ,
Just out of curiosity, what changes would you have recommended to his dive plan given the opportunity? Obviously diving semi-solo with an END of 80 or 90m isn't anywhere near DIR, but do you think changes could be made to make such a dive safe? It seems to me that doing a dive to such extreme depths with a reasonable degree of safety would be close to impossible, with most improvements having adverse side-effects. (eg. Lower END = Greater HPNS symptoms, More gas = Greater encumbrance.)

Thanks.

 

[Diver0001]

Jarrod once bubbled...
Part 1 of 3

Hello Everyone,

I know that many of you decided long ago how you felt about DIR, Halcyon, and GUE. However, some of you are still trying to evaluate these groups and how they fit into your future diving plans.

<snip>

Jarrod,

Please tell us what you plan to do about the arrogance, elitism and constant steam of "you-are-a-stroke-and-you-will-die-if-you-don't-do-it-this-way" innuendo.

This is a much more often debated and much hotter topic in internet forums than the history of DIR or GUE and I would submit that your most fervent opponents are reacting to the arrogance much more than to the history of the organisation.

Personally--and I don't think I'm unusual in this respect--I feel embarrassed when someone called me a "DIR" diver; or even a "DIR wannabe" a "GI clone" a "DIR Robot" or even "one of those DIR assh0les"..... yes we hear them all. I don't act like it and I'm not even GUE trained but even dressing in Halcyon gear is enough to bring down loads of frustrated cynicism on you neck from divers who are sick-and-tired of the hostile, vulgar and arrogant ways of one of the founders of the system.

If you ask me, DIR suffers from an image problem because of this, not because of it's history and business associations. I don't think people even really care about that, but it gets used as "yet another example". People who have become cynical enough will look for anything even remotely discordant and hammer on it.

It's a nice initiative to post to a public forum but in my mind you're not addressing the big issues and I would challenge you to do so.

Respectfully,
R..

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

Maybe it's time to change perspective a bit. Most of us here it seems, have great respect for Most of the DIR ideas and philosophies. Many of us have incorporated numerous aspects of DIR into our own gear, dive planning, and technique choices. BUT, choices is the operative word, we each reserve the right to make our own assessments and work within our skills and knowledge to reach our own conclusions on how we want to do things. That then becomes what works best...because it works best for me in the place and conditions that I'm diving in. (Naturally, buddys/ team has to work out for them what they agree is best together)

Now while I'll agree that having everyone identicle has it's advantages in some situations, (like the military, or WKPP, etc.) I don't see where stamping out "cookie cutter" divers makes them any better, or more right than I am, or most of the rest of the tech divers here.

From now on, I officially consider myself a DIJAR diver...... anyone else want to sign up!....



Darlene

 

[Diver0001]

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled...
Maybe it's time to change perspective a bit. Most of us here it seems, have great respect for Most of the DIR ideas and philosophies. Many of us have incorporated numerous aspects of DIR into our own gear, dive planning, and technique choices. BUT, choices is the operative word, we each reserve the right to make our own assessments and work within our skills and knowledge to reach our own conclusions on how we want to do things. That then becomes what works best...because it works best for me in the place and conditions that I'm diving in. (Naturally, buddys/ team has to work out for them what they agree is best together)

Now while I'll agree that having everyone identicle has it's advantages in some situations, (like the military, or WKPP, etc.) I don't see where stamping out "cookie cutter" divers makes them any better, or more right than I am, or most of the rest of the tech divers here.

From now on, I officially consider myself a DIJAR diver...... anyone else want to sign up!....



Darlene

Actually I think that this is exactly what DIR was meant to counter. In JJ's post he describes a past that wasn't much different that what you suggest with the conclusion that we needed DIR to bring order to the chaos.

I will agree that the name is badly chosen, though. "Do it Right" immediately implies that everything else is WRONG. This closes down creativity and hinders open discussion if you ask me. Perhaps "BEP" would be better. "BEst Practices". Nice, neutral, and catchy without judgement, without being closed to influence from outside and ready for evolution when somethign better comes along.

Anyone else want to be BEP diver?

R..