DIR, WKPP, GUE, and Halcyon Part 1 of 3

[Genesis]

That's one of the problems with "movements" like this - they sound so cult-like, because they adopt the principles of a cult - and that's the end of open, honest, discussion.

From that point forward, if you analyze things differently and come to different conclusions you're "wrong".

You've violated the dogma, stepped on the holy heart of Jes@s, committed sacrilege, etc - and from that point forward all rational thought and debate shuts down.

I don't deny that WKPP and JJ personally have performed amazing feats and exploration in diving. But is it really a matter of just "doing it right", and everyone else is "doing it wrong"?

In a word - no.

I enjoy open, straight-forward debate on the merits. Closed minds gather no information - asking that I accept dogma without proof that indeed the dogma is not only correct in the present circumstance, but is correct across all circumstances, is not open debate - its a demand for fealty to be part of "the club". As an individual who has, in the past, been seduced by such a "movement" (in the religious sense) and who overcame the dogma with sheer force of will, I have a keenly-tuned sense for this kind of thing, and my BS meter remains extraordinarily sensitive to it.

So..... I welcome the discussion, and even the debate - but let's not slam doors on what is, and is not a part of it. I pointed out just one of the areas where I have an issue with the "DIR Dogma" as expressed in the fundamentals book, and would welcome a straight-forward debate of each of the 13 points - if anyone would like to take it on - as just one point on the table among many.

 

[cornfed]

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled...

From now on, I officially consider myself a DIJAR diver...... anyone else want to sign up!....

Several people on rec.scuba started a concept they refer to as "Team 3", which is basically what you're describing.

 

[docmartin]

i am always surprised by how much some people are incensed over what genesis describes as the "dogma" of DIR. DIR is a (rather expansive) approach to diving. as such it defines the components of the DIR system. that is how any systematic approach works. you obviously don't have a real system if you say things like "use a 7ft hose because... but if you don't want to that's fine, too." a system needs a definition and it can't be vague about adherence. so yes, in that sense DIR clearly is dogmatic.
however, instead of taking fault with this just take a step back. it is completely up to you to adopt all, some or none of the DIR rules. there is no punishment if you don't follow the rules. all that happens is that you are not 100% DIR conform. what is the problem with that? nobody is saying you are a bad person. you are just not DIR. what do you care since you don't fully agree with the system anyway? there are ways of doing things and equipment configurations that are decidedly un-PADI (NAUI...), too, and you won't get certified if you don't follow these rules. No one seems to get very upset about that.
in the end, much of the heat in the debate stems from the unfortunate name "DIR". if DIR was called something like "friends of safe diving" i think much of the emotional debate would be avoided. but people just don't want to feel like they are doing it wrong. hey, it's a name. it's catchy and it seemed clever. it's not even an outrageous claim but rather stating the obvious. any system and scuba agency feels they are doing it right. after all, i doubt PADI, NAUI, etc. would tell you they are doing it wrong. just get over the fact that you can't be DIR if you don't buy into certain rules. there is no stigma to not being DIR. you can still be dir.

 

[Atticus]

I asked a DIR-F instructor a couple of weeks ago about innovation. His answer was that innovation was great, but that it has to come from the top. To be clear, this question was asked by itself - not in any particular context, except for a discussion about the DIR philosophy.

This answer really turned me off as the message sounds a lot like "we don't want you to think, instead just accept what we tell you".

When I went to meet the instructor it was my intention to sign up for his DIR-F class. After spending a couple of hours talking about issues such as this one I found that my interest had waned.

I actually like the fellow, am sure he's a great diver, etc. but I don't know how to get past this.

JJ - I would very much appreciate your comments on this. Is this the philosophy of your organisation or was this instructor out of line?

 

[MHK]

Atticus once bubbled...
I asked a DIR-F instructor a couple of weeks ago about innovation. His answer was that innovation was great, but that it has to come from the top. To be clear, this question was asked by itself - not in any particular context, except for a discussion about the DIR philosophy.

This answer really turned me off as the message sounds a lot like "we don't want you to think, instead just accept what we tell you".

When I went to meet the instructor it was my intention to sign up for his DIR-F class. After spending a couple of hours talking about issues such as this one I found that my interest had waned.

JJ - I would very much appreciate your comments on this. Is this the philosophy of your organisation or was this instructor out of line?

I'll obviously allow JJ the opportunity to comment but from my perspective, and since I was in Tahoe two weeks ago, I hope anything we said didn't offend anyone. In fact, we spent several hours with people outside our class speaking to various issues ranging from DIR through an ad hoc rebreather demo.

That being said, we invite dialogue about any aspect of the system. In fact, in my classes I encourage everyone to ask as many questions as they can, and in point of fact I make a specific issue out of making sure my students understand the reason behind every aspect of the system. The last thing that I want is a student that accepts everything we tell them "just because". We believe the DIR system is well-thought out and we believe that each and every aspect of system can be discussed in great detail with rationale for every component. Many of us try to spend a fair amount of time on various lists hoping to explain teh various systems and we remain available publicly or privately to discuss the issue.

One final comment I would like to make about the name issue, such as it is.. May I ask, if you don't buy Dive Rite gear did you buy Dive Wrong gear??? If you don't breath Safe Air are you breathing un Safe Air?? If PADI is "THE" way the world learns to dive and I didn't learn from PADI do I not know how to dive??? The point being it's a slogan that I don't understand the problem other then some who may otherwise take issue with DIR seem to cling too..

Hope that helps..

Later

 

[JohnF]

Mike, in the time you've been actively involved in diving DIR, have you observed much change in the accepted DIR approach, specifically in regard to recreational open water diving? And if so, did those changes all originate from the top, or did they at least in part come about through feedback to the top from those in the trenchs?

Thanks
JohnF

MHK once bubbled...


I'll obviously allow JJ the oportunity to comment but from my perspective, and since I was in Tahoe two weeks ago, I hope anything we said didn't offend anyone. In fact, we spent several hours with people outside our class speaking to various issues ranging from DIR through an ad hoc rebreather demo.

That being said, we invite dialogue about any aspect of the system. In fact, in my classes I encourage everyone to ask as many questions as they can, and in point of fact I make a specific issue out of making sure my students understand the reason behind every aspect of the system. The last thing that I want is a student that accepts everything we tell them "just because". We believe the DIR system is well-thought out and we believe that each and every aspect of system can be discussed in great detail with rationale for every component. Many of us try to spend a fair amount of time on various lists hoping to explain teh various systems and we remain available publicly or privately to discuss the issue.

One final comment I would like to make about the name issue, such as it is.. May I ask, if you don't buy Dive Rite gear did you buy Dive Wrong gear??? If you don't breath Safe Air are you breathing un Safe Air?? If PADI is "THE" way to learn to dive and I didn't learn from PADI do I not know how to dive??? The point being it's a slogan that I don't understand the problem other then some who may otherwise take issue with DIR seem to cling too..

Hope that helps..

Later

 

[Genesis]

The point being it's a slogan that I don't understand the problem other then some who may otherwise take issue with DIR seem to cling too..

How many other ways of learning to dive, or of gear manufacturers, suggest or even go so far as to state that you will die if you don't do it "their" way?

Do you know of any other folks - other than Irvine and the DIR zealots - that talk about selling a particular brand of gear with a shovel to dig the graves with, as just one of many examples?

 

[MHK]

JohnF once bubbled...
Mike, in the time you've been actively involved in diving DIR, have you observed much change in the accepted DIR approach, specifically in regard to recreational open water diving? And if so, did those changes all originate from the top, or did they at least in part come about through feedback to the top from those in the trenchs?

Thanks
JohnF

During my time in the DIR movement I've seen some changes and one of the things that seems slightly misunderstood is that DIR is not static. It is a dynamic movement that is constantly looking for improvement. To that end what may be somewhat useful to understand is that many of the ideas that some advance have already been tried, and not that they will kill you, but in the context of a holostic system, some of these ideas don't necessarily compliment the other components of the system.

To the extent changes have been incoprorated they come from a wide variety of avenues. Given that the guys at the "top", so to speak, are constantly looking for ways to improve the system it's not surprising that many of the ideas come from them, but also given that they are constantly in the field and in a wide variety of environments and locations ideas have a way of finding them as well..

Hopefully that answers the questions, if not let me know..

Later

 

[David Evans]

Well, I've read this thread, and I've just gotta ask:

What's the big deal?

The same suspects have voiced the same opinions on this topic, as they do every time it is brought up.

If you don't like DIR or GUE or Halcyon, then don't DIVE DIR, don't TAKE GUE TRAINING, and DON'T BUY HALCYON PRODUCTS.

It's a simple answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

Why do you care if George Irvine thinks you are going to die, if you are convinced you dive safely?

Why do you care what someone on the beach with a longhose thinks about your gear configuration if you aren't diving with them?

Why do you care about GUE's opinion on solo diving if you are going to solo dive anyway?

It takes two individuals to argue.

What I was told when starting my Fundamentals course by the instructor was: Come in with an open mind, try the things we tell you, use those things you find applicable to your diving - and reject what doesn't fit.

If you believe that you know all there is to know about diving, the I assure you that GUE offers you nothing. If you think you can still learn a thing or two, then evaluate GUE as a possible instruction path.

The objections that I continue to see raised are about ego. Why do those of you who object to the term "DIR" feel that you need validation of some sort from GUE?

I am an SSI AOWI, and I dive DIR. I don't really care what PADI or NAUI or IANTD or TDI think about how I dive, or how I teach, or how I wipe my butt. Why should those of you who don't dive DIR care what GUE thinks of your training?

Argue with me on this if you want, I don't care - but evaluate those questions for yourself on their merits.

If GUE can help you be a better diver, then you might consider learning from them.

Otherwise, what's the big deal?

-david

 

[Diver0001]

MHK once bubbled...


<snip>

One final comment I would like to make about the name issue, such as it is.. May I ask, if you don't buy Dive Rite gear did you buy Dive Wrong gear??? If you don't breath Safe Air are you breathing un Safe Air?? If PADI is "THE" way the world learns to dive and I didn't learn from PADI do I not know how to dive??? The point being it's a slogan that I don't understand the problem other then some who may otherwise take issue with DIR seem to cling too..

Hope that helps..

Later

Dear Michael,

Dive Rite (not dive _right_) doesn't advertise that the competition makes "stroke" gear and they don't call people publicly, vehemently and repeatedly "IDIOTS" (or much worse) for not buying it. They do NOT advertise or even suggest that OMS makes "wings of death" or that AP Valves gear should be sold with a shovel to bury the dead.

Same goes for PADI. PADI endures a lot of slander (some of it earned) but they do not engage in the kind of hostile and arrogant name-calling that has become the trademark of the DIR upper echelon, who are also the Halcyon and GUE upper echelon. Some of the people and organisations involved have missed, in my opinion, a royal chance to provide the diving world with positive roll models for the benefit of all and instead have seemingly been unable to teather either their egos or their personality flaws and have tarnished DIR, GUE and Halycon with this elitism, arrogance and machismo; relegating it, probably permanently now, to a niche. It's really a shame.

But maybe you're right. Perhaps if this weren't happening, DIR wouldn't have an imagae problem and people wouldn't have reason take exception to the name....

R..