DIR, WKPP, GUE, and Halcyon Part 1 of 3

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...


How many other ways of learning to dive, or of gear manufacturers, suggest or even go so far as to state that you will die if you don't do it "their" way?

Do you know of any other folks - other than Irvine and the DIR zealots - that talk about selling a particular brand of gear with a shovel to dig the graves with, as just one of many examples?

The NACD and NSS-CDS both tell you that will die if you cave dive without proper training.

The Inspiration manual says, "If you fail to watch your ppO2 and understand the implications - you will die, it is only a question of where and when." That's a direct quote.

So Karl, would you care to clarify your point?

 

[Atticus]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your reply. No it was not your group that I was talking to, though if I'd realized you were running a class up at the lake I would have headed over to visit as I've heard a lot of positive things about how you teach your classes.

I appreciate your statement that innovation can come from any source. It strikes me as close minded to say that innovation can only come from the top, and it seems to say that we should not think for our selves. I think you can understand why that might have turned me off.

Perhaps it was just one instructors opinion.

-Atticus

 

[cornfed]

Diver0001 once bubbled...

Dive Rite (not dive _right_) doesn't advertise that the competition makes "stroke" gear and they don't call people publicly, vehemently and repeatedly "IDIOTS" (or much worse) for not buying it. They do NOT advertise or even suggest that OMS makes "wings of death" or that AP Valves gear should be sold with a shovel to bury the dead.

Cite. Who said this? What is their relationship to GUE or Halcyon?

Same goes for PADI. PADI endures a lot of slander (some of it earned) but they do not engage in the kind of hostile and arrogant name-calling that has become the trademark of the DIR upper echelon, who are also the Halcyon and GUE upper echelon.

Again, cite. Is JJ making these slanderous comments? Panos Alexakos? Surely if there name-calling has a become trademark of the Halcyon and GUE upper echelon it shouldn't be hard to provide us with some examples.

 

[Atticus]

In response to the "why do you care?" question I think I can make a stab at that -

We all want to be better divers. GUE advertises that they can make us better divers. The top GUE people have excellent diving resumes, and probably know their stuff better than 99% of us. In short, they have the ability to teach us a lot.

We are however told that DIR is a holistic approach and that we have to embrace the whole enchilada or it's for not. Then we get little pieces that sound wrong to us. Now we're torn; we would like to pursue what we hope is better dive education, but we can't really accept some of what we're hearing.

Some of the issues that I would like an explanation of:

1. Does GUE teach that we should do what makes sense to us for our environment, etc, or that we should follow their protocols, configuration, etc. in order to remain standard?

2. On the subject of dive computers - I think we all (or most of us) agree that blindly following a dive computer is not the best answer, especially for tech. Assuming we agree on that, then why such resistance to using a dive computer as a bottom timer, and an extra check to help keep you out of trouble? We generate profiles on V-Planner, write them on our slates, follow them, etc - the computer is just there as one more backup.

3. Why is 80% really such a bad mix? I'm happy deco'ing on oxygen, but there are circumstances when 80% seems like a good choice such as environmental (like a reef that protects me from currents at 30' but would not protect me at 20' - obviously I don't mean Tahoe), and gas supply/management.

The bakers dozen 80/20 article refutes a number of arguments that others have used for 80%, but it doesn't give very many strong reasons not to use it. The arguments that I understand are a) oxygen will give you the best gradient to offgas nitrogen, and b) having oxygen on hand for DCS treatment. The run times in VPM-B for 80% vs. 100% are close to identical for the dives we've been doing (250' TD, 15 minutes), so according to the deco software we're using the offgassing difference in terms of deco obligation is not that great. The DCS treatment issue is certainly valid, and having more oxygen than is available in the DAN O2 kits isn't a bad idea.

OTOH getting fills of 100% at 3000 psi has proven to be a problem. We generally end up filling to around 2200 psi of 100%. If we top with air to make 80% we get almost a third more gas. Why wouldn't we want the extra gas for emergencies? Did I mention that the deco times are within 2% for the dives we're doing (80% vs. 100%)?

Yet the bakes dozen 80/20 article would have us believe that:

"Only a card-carrying stroke would do somethng like this, and showing up with 80/20 is no different than wearing a sign on your back saying "I am a stroke, and have the papers to prove it". It announces to all the world that you have no clue, kind of like wearing clip-on suspenders or having dog dirt on your shoes."

And isn't rule #1 of DIR "Don't dive with strokes"

 

[Atticus]

I suspect that a great deal of the damage that's been done to GUE's PR image has come from GI. I recognize that GI is not formally part of GUE, however there has been the ongoing appearance of a close relationship.

I think a great number of divers have felt insulted directly or indirectly by GI and that that is causing a lot of reluctance to accept GUE as a reputable training organisation.

Perhaps if GUE were to "come out of the cave" and publicly distance themselves from GI it would help.

 

[Diver0001]

cornfed once bubbled...


Cite. Who said this? What is their relationship to GUE or Halcyon?



Again, cite. Is JJ making these slanderous comments? Panos Alexakos? Surely if they name-calling has become trademark of the Halcyon and GUE upper echelon it shouldn't be hard to provide us with some examples.

Well,

The association is clear but I'll spell it out for you. George Irvine is as much "Mr. DIR" as JJ, PA, MHK or anyone else. What GI says reflects directly on the GUE due to the DIR/GUE/WKPP link. (two hands on one belly as the Dutch would say)

As a matter of fact I have an impression of JJ as emotionally balaced, serious and intellectual but unfortunately for him and for the GUE he is quite overshadowed by his evil twin. And the fact that GUE, Halcyon and JJ do not attempt to distance themselves from what GI (and perhaps just as much so his following of equally vocal and for the most part GUE trained disciples) says in the name of DIR implys consent. I can only assume that they are all very proud.

Having said that, I should clarify one thing. To my knowledge neither GUE nor Halcyon as companies have advertised using the things that GI says (after re-reading my previous post one might have had the impression that this is what I meant)

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Atticus once bubbled...
I suspect that a great deal of the damage that's been done to GUE's PR image has come from GI. I recognize that GI is not formally part of GUE, however there has been the ongoing appearance of a close relationship.

I think a great number of divers have felt insulted directly or indirectly by GI and that that is causing a lot of reluctance to accept GUE as a reputable training organisation.

Perhaps if GUE were to "come out of the cave" and publicly distance themselves from GI it would help.

BULLSEYE!!!!

 

[JohnF]

Atticus once bubbled...
I suspect that a great deal of the damage that's been done to GUE's PR image has come from GI. I recognize that GI is not formally part of GUE, however there has been the ongoing appearance of a close relationship.

I think a great number of divers have felt insulted directly or indirectly by GI and that that is causing a lot of reluctance to accept GUE as a reputable training organisation.

Perhaps if GUE were to "come out of the cave" and publicly distance themselves from GI it would help.

From a PR aspect, everything you say about GI3 is probably true. On the other hand, I think he's an intrinsic part of DIR as it is known today. For JJ, GUE et al to deny George any credit for the existence of DIR would be like saying A.J. Foyt did nothing for stock car racing, and probably even more ridiculous.

And furthermore, I've seen nothing to suggest that JJ is inclined to turn his back on George. As far as I know they're friends and diving buddies with evidently well-deserved respect for each other's abilities. GI's internet persona may be kind of hard to take much of the time, but if he was an equally successful football or basketball coach all the armchair qb's would be chuckling and hailing him as the new Vince Lombardi reincarnated with a quirky style.

Ask yourself how many times you've reluctantly taken a look at what you're doing dive-wise just because GI ranted on the net. Most of us have, and most of us hate to admit it, because it's human nature to resist attitudes like his. It's also human nature to absorb good advice if it might save yer keester, no matter how unpalatably presented.

I can politely ask you "Please do it this way in the interests of safety." or I can scream in yer face "Do it the right way or die, sucker!". You'll hear the second directive loud and clear, guaranteed.

Sure he's rude and obnoxious. So's much of the internet. Sure he goes way over the top at times to sell his pitch, but what's in it for him? It sure ain't about the money, and how often is he dead wrong? I believe GI3 may be the fiercest proponent of dive safety out there today, at least on the internet, and for that, I'll cut him a little slack. I just really really wish he'd let the dead rest in peace. 8)

JohnF[/i]

 

[DeepTechScuba]

I read JJ's book on DIR diving, and I was amazed at many of the novel ideas that it contains. I am not a GUE nor DIR diver, however I believe that his book is well worth everyone's time to read carefully.

In scuba diving, we have always shared new information and ideas with each other. This is what makes scuba more interesting and more safe with each passing year and decade of scuba evolution.

Of JJ's many thoughts, the most profound and important, I feel, is his emphasis that each diver should be self sufficient and non-buddy dependant. He emphasizes skill and conditioning as the foundation for safe diving, and everyone would benefit from adherence to this rule of being self sufficient.

Another profoundly new idea is that divers should donate their primary regulators in the case of an air sharing emergency.

Akin to donating your primary regulator is having your own secondary regulator be a full service 2nd stage readily accessible to you at all times. The best place to wear this secondary regulator is therefore suspended around your neck, like the cave divers do.

What JJ has done is take the principles of cave diving and apply them to modern non-cave scuba. Although I myself do not necessarily agree with having a 6' or 7' hose with me on every non-penitration dive, I do believe that JJ is correct in asserting that we should all dive with two full service 2nd stages, and that we should donate our primary when it is needed by a buddy.

These thoughts, and many other thoughts, in his book on DIR are worth everyone's consideration, especially that of the diving instructors in the diving industry. So I highly recommend the book. I dont expect everyone will agree with everything in the book, and I myself do not necessarily agree with everything in the book. However the book is definitely worth reading, and thinking about.

 

[cornfed]

Diver0001 once bubbled...
The association is clear but I'll spell it out for you. George Irvine is as much "Mr. DIR" as JJ, PA, MHK or anyone else. What GI says reflects directly on the GUE due to the DIR/GUE/WKPP link. (two hands on one belly as the Dutch would say)

I'm well aware of GI3's relationship to DIR. Are you aware that he has had occasion to turned the same venomous tongue against GUE?

And the fact that GUE, Halcyon and JJ do not attempt to distance themselves from what GI (and perhaps just as much so his following of equally vocal and for the most part GUE trained disciples) says in the name of DIR implys consent. I can only assume that they are all very proud.

Do you want them to make a press release stating that GI isn't part of GUE and doesn't speak for them?

Kane recently made an appeal to "new" DIR advocates here on SB. This suggests that GUE is aware of their image problem and not proud of it.

Having said that, I should clarify one thing. To my knowledge neither GUE nor Halcyon as companies have advertised using the things that GI says (after re-reading my previous post one might have had the impression that this is what I meant)

Thank you. The implications in your original post are what really pissed me off.

Drew