Spectre
Contributor
I just watched the skills drills on the fifthd.com website.
Wow. Just Wow.
DIRF, A Sobering Experience
- Thread starter Lost Yooper
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I just watched the skills drills on the fifthd.com website.
Wow. Just Wow.
wetman
Contributor
As far as second guessing yourself and current techniques, isnt it a bit harsh to reconsider diving completely?
No matter how bad what i do now is or what poor technique i may have demonstrated, i've enjoyed the vast majority of diving that i've done and no one can take that away.
I think the best you can do is just try to constantly improve and learn from past experience. And DIRF may help you get closer to the goal. I'll be taking it soon i think so we'll have to see.
I think sometimes we forget this stuff is supposed to be FUN!
Steve
No matter how bad what i do now is or what poor technique i may have demonstrated, i've enjoyed the vast majority of diving that i've done and no one can take that away.
I think the best you can do is just try to constantly improve and learn from past experience. And DIRF may help you get closer to the goal. I'll be taking it soon i think so we'll have to see.
I think sometimes we forget this stuff is supposed to be FUN!
Steve
Mike,
Could you possibly give us some examples of exactly what these "bad habits" are?
Herman
Could you possibly give us some examples of exactly what these "bad habits" are?
Herman
tombiowami
Contributor
Along these same lines, I just took Naui Rescue. A big reason I took it was I knew the instructor and what type of training I had in store. I was really shocked at the book provided, which he said cost around 47$. It was still full of the shlock stock photos of reef divers dragging regs and consoles in the sand in there relentless pursuit to destroy the coral. I don't think I saw a single picture of someone in good form. Most of the info in the book provided was very basic and common sensical. I would a say about 5 pages of useful stuff, the rest color and glitz and saying the same thing over and over and over. It was hard to tell if it was Skin Diver mag or a first aid rescue book. Remember this is what Naui (and I think Padi) use as the spring board to the"pro" courses like dive master, instructor, etc. sad...
Tommy
Tommy
Let me through some things out. First off we do teach some skills while kneeling. For instance we must teach reg recovery and clearing early on in order to ensure survival. At this time students have not yet learned how to get neutral. The same is true for other skills. Some skills simply must be taught in the beginning. The fin pivot is simply a method of getting someone neutral the first time. Contact with the bottom adds some control. A good instructor will not teach poor trim so that one can perorm a fin pivot. Now, with all that said, there is nothing in the PADI standards that says I can't have students initiate air sharing while horizantal and neutral. There is nothing in the standards that says that on dive four we must sit on the bottom and remove our masks. Much of this is up to the instructor. In fact, an air sharing swim is required. An instructor can do if fast and bad or slow and good.
Like the rest of you I learned all this while kneeling on the bottom only. Well, the first tme I lost a mask there was no bottom handy. We then practiced mask removal and replacement while neutral. The same for many other skills. The thing you really must remember here is that the average vacation diver doesn't give a double flying #### and will not put in the time to look like a DIRF graduate.
I tell each student that the intent is to never touch the bottom. I show footage of cave diving. Not to encourage cave diving but because that is where you must look to see proper trim. I can't get this much out of students in an OW course but this is where we show it to them so they know what the goal should be.
You are all correct in that most DM's and instructors can't do it and don't know they should be able to. My DM's, however, can do it.
Like the rest of you I learned all this while kneeling on the bottom only. Well, the first tme I lost a mask there was no bottom handy. We then practiced mask removal and replacement while neutral. The same for many other skills. The thing you really must remember here is that the average vacation diver doesn't give a double flying #### and will not put in the time to look like a DIRF graduate.
I tell each student that the intent is to never touch the bottom. I show footage of cave diving. Not to encourage cave diving but because that is where you must look to see proper trim. I can't get this much out of students in an OW course but this is where we show it to them so they know what the goal should be.
You are all correct in that most DM's and instructors can't do it and don't know they should be able to. My DM's, however, can do it.
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Wetman,
You have to consider the type of diving I do. There simply isn't any room for error or inefficiencies. That class brought out all of our problems and the instructors made sure each student knew about them. It took some time, but I did come to the realization that I'm still a relatively safe diver. In fact, I'm safer than most that I have dove with and been around.
So, no, I'm not going to give up diving. I'm going to go away from that class with an enormous amount of information and try to implement as much of it as I can. I don't think I'll ever get to that level of skill without a ton of time and energy spent. In fact, I don't think I can do it without spending time with someone more skilled in such techniques than I am. Basically, we have to come up with contigencies to counteract our deficiencies as best we can. We have to practice what we can, when we can. We have to accept more risk than we previously didn't realize we had to accept.
Mike
You have to consider the type of diving I do. There simply isn't any room for error or inefficiencies. That class brought out all of our problems and the instructors made sure each student knew about them. It took some time, but I did come to the realization that I'm still a relatively safe diver. In fact, I'm safer than most that I have dove with and been around.
So, no, I'm not going to give up diving. I'm going to go away from that class with an enormous amount of information and try to implement as much of it as I can. I don't think I'll ever get to that level of skill without a ton of time and energy spent. In fact, I don't think I can do it without spending time with someone more skilled in such techniques than I am. Basically, we have to come up with contigencies to counteract our deficiencies as best we can. We have to practice what we can, when we can. We have to accept more risk than we previously didn't realize we had to accept.
Mike
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Herman,
Finding examples is easy. Simply take a look in your PADI OW dive manual for examples of what not do and what not to look like underwater. Take a look at all of the manuals, videos, TV shows, etc. for examples and then compare them to the Fifth D videos.
Look, I'm not saying that if you don't do it GUE's way you're all going to die. Trust me, if that's the case, I'll be dead long before most of you. What I am saying is that this money driven industry has shamlessly placed skill requirements at the bottom of the barrel.
Mike
Finding examples is easy. Simply take a look in your PADI OW dive manual for examples of what not do and what not to look like underwater. Take a look at all of the manuals, videos, TV shows, etc. for examples and then compare them to the Fifth D videos.
Look, I'm not saying that if you don't do it GUE's way you're all going to die. Trust me, if that's the case, I'll be dead long before most of you. What I am saying is that this money driven industry has shamlessly placed skill requirements at the bottom of the barrel.
Mike
Simplicimus
New
I went through the DIRF class with Mike this last weekend. I was the least experienced diver in the class, by far. The class was the most useful learning experience in the shortest amount of time that I have ever been through, not just in diving, but in my whole life.
"Sobering" and "humbling" are two words that spring immediately to mind to describe the experience, but other words are "respect," "gratitude" and "determination."
To watch myself on video utterly unable to maintain proper attitude in the water for 10 seconds in row while attempting to execute what should be simple propulsion skills like a frog kick, was both sobering and humbling. But, while Andrew's criticism of my deficiencies was direct and unequivocal, it was not in any sense brutal or demeaning. As we spent the evening after the first set of dives reviewing the video of our underwater exploits, Andrew paused and reversed the video, pointed out what each diver was doing right, and what each diver was doing wrong. And he didn't just say it. He showed us. He cleared a table, laid down on it, and demonstrated exactly what he wanted. Then he took some of the divers, like me, and put us on the table, right in the middle on the video review, and showed us exactly what we should be doing and how to do it. This, by the way, was after he had spent the evening before, among other things, doing exactly the same types of demonstrations on the floor, on a stool and on a table. And, it was after we had all spent time the morning before these dives, laying on tarps practicing these same kicks, with the instructors first demonstrating, then moving from diver to diver helping each of us to try to get the muscle memory of how to do it.
The instructors are intelligent, articulate, and phenomenally skilled. They could be doing anything in diving, but they take the time, week after week, to get in the water and try to teach yet another crew of sloppy divers what we all should have learned the first minute we got in the water. I have enormous respect for their skill, their knowledge, and their devotion to improving our sport. I also have deep respect for the people in the class like Mike who have had hundreds of dives, are obviously superior divers to just about everyone in the water, and still are determined to be better. I am grateful for the experience, because even though I'm a mess in the water, I now know what I should be doing to improve, and I have a road map of how to get there. Like Mike, one of my first reactions was to question whether I should quit pretending I am a diver, chuck it in as a bad job, and go work on my golf game. Now, 24 hours after the class is over, I'm just determined to practice what I learned and be the best diver I can be.
Some observations:
The skills we had such trouble with are basic skills that EVERYONE should be able to do proficiently as part of basic training and certification as a diver. Of course, NO ONE gets this training through the conventional agencies. Every agency wants to crank divers through the certification process as quickly and painlessly as possible, both for the divers and for the instructors. The fastest and simplest thing seems be to teach people on their knees, in a little campfire circle on the platform or pool bottom. Conventional training is anchored to a fixed, shallow floor. How does this prepare a diver for an out of air situation or a lost mask when the floor is 100 or 500 or 1000 feet below? I think I had a better OW class than most, but we did not spend one minute talking about, let alone practicing, remaining nuetrally bouyant in the water column, or how to move in an efficient horizontal attitude through the water instead of a drag-inducing vertical attitude. This should be a rock-bottom basic skill, not an issue for new divers to sort out on their own later, if ever.
These are not lofty goals that only the elite can reach. GUE teaches the exact same skills we learned in the DIRF class to ordinary off-the-street neophytes (pretty much like me) as part of their OW class. These student are taught that they CANNOT touch the bottom of the pool. They are taught to perform all the skills horizontally, without losing bouyancy, in the controlled environment of a pool, under the supervision of instructors. It is NOT too much to handle either for the students or the instructors. These ordinary students get out of their OW class looking like elite divers compared to all the rest of us. Every new diver should be taught this way. It can be done.
To answer some questions:
What skills are taught? This is in incomplete summary:
Attitude in the water. Why a horizontal attitude is important. How to acheive and maintain a horizontal attitude. How to tilt around your center of gravity to a head up or head down position.
Movement in the water. Why certain propulsion techniques are better than others, which techniques are appropriate in which environments. How of perform different kicks, such as frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick. How to reverse, how to rotate over a point, and why you might want to. Why you should not use your hands to move yourself underwater.
Bouyancy. Why you need to control your bouyancy. How to control your bouyancy.
Basic 4 skills. Regulator removal and replacement. Switching from the primary to the backup regulator and back. Flood and clear mask. Mask removal and replacement (with eyes closed to simulate a zero visibilty situation). All skills to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.
Safety drills. Out of air drills. Donation of primary regulator, switch to backup, control of out of air diver and gas supply, buddy air share while swimming, controlled ascent while air sharing. All to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.
Predive Planning and Procedures. Team equipment check while dry and in the water. Team dive planning- scenario, air supply, depth, distance, duration, decompression.
Valve drills. Open and close all valves underwater, maintaining proper attitude and bouyancy. Done for both single and double tanks.
Situational awareness. Understand and manage your equipment, environment and team. Know where you are, what you are doing, what is around you, what might go wrong, and what you will do when it does. How to swim with a buddy or group of buddies, maintaining constant communication, either actively or passively. How to follow a line. How to find a lost line. How to prioritize tasks in an emergency.
Equipment. How to fit harness and backplate. Hose routing and management. Hose lengths. Proper placement of equipment. Why, as opposed to whim and caprice, DIR equipment is configured the way it is.
Gas usage planning. Rock bottom and turn pressure tank psi for different size tanks, at different depths, under various dive conditions.
DIR philosophy. Why DIR is the way it is. Why it works. Why various alternatives are unsafe, or less efficient.
Another question was asked about where is the fun in going through all this? Of course the only reason we are in this sport is we want to have fun. But watching a body get hauled out of the water is not fun. It's less fun if it's your body. To be competent and confident in the water is the true way to have the most fun. This class will help you have fun.
I'll conclude this by saying thank you to Andrew, Mike and Dan for putting me on the road to being a better diver.
Bill
"Sobering" and "humbling" are two words that spring immediately to mind to describe the experience, but other words are "respect," "gratitude" and "determination."
To watch myself on video utterly unable to maintain proper attitude in the water for 10 seconds in row while attempting to execute what should be simple propulsion skills like a frog kick, was both sobering and humbling. But, while Andrew's criticism of my deficiencies was direct and unequivocal, it was not in any sense brutal or demeaning. As we spent the evening after the first set of dives reviewing the video of our underwater exploits, Andrew paused and reversed the video, pointed out what each diver was doing right, and what each diver was doing wrong. And he didn't just say it. He showed us. He cleared a table, laid down on it, and demonstrated exactly what he wanted. Then he took some of the divers, like me, and put us on the table, right in the middle on the video review, and showed us exactly what we should be doing and how to do it. This, by the way, was after he had spent the evening before, among other things, doing exactly the same types of demonstrations on the floor, on a stool and on a table. And, it was after we had all spent time the morning before these dives, laying on tarps practicing these same kicks, with the instructors first demonstrating, then moving from diver to diver helping each of us to try to get the muscle memory of how to do it.
The instructors are intelligent, articulate, and phenomenally skilled. They could be doing anything in diving, but they take the time, week after week, to get in the water and try to teach yet another crew of sloppy divers what we all should have learned the first minute we got in the water. I have enormous respect for their skill, their knowledge, and their devotion to improving our sport. I also have deep respect for the people in the class like Mike who have had hundreds of dives, are obviously superior divers to just about everyone in the water, and still are determined to be better. I am grateful for the experience, because even though I'm a mess in the water, I now know what I should be doing to improve, and I have a road map of how to get there. Like Mike, one of my first reactions was to question whether I should quit pretending I am a diver, chuck it in as a bad job, and go work on my golf game. Now, 24 hours after the class is over, I'm just determined to practice what I learned and be the best diver I can be.
Some observations:
The skills we had such trouble with are basic skills that EVERYONE should be able to do proficiently as part of basic training and certification as a diver. Of course, NO ONE gets this training through the conventional agencies. Every agency wants to crank divers through the certification process as quickly and painlessly as possible, both for the divers and for the instructors. The fastest and simplest thing seems be to teach people on their knees, in a little campfire circle on the platform or pool bottom. Conventional training is anchored to a fixed, shallow floor. How does this prepare a diver for an out of air situation or a lost mask when the floor is 100 or 500 or 1000 feet below? I think I had a better OW class than most, but we did not spend one minute talking about, let alone practicing, remaining nuetrally bouyant in the water column, or how to move in an efficient horizontal attitude through the water instead of a drag-inducing vertical attitude. This should be a rock-bottom basic skill, not an issue for new divers to sort out on their own later, if ever.
These are not lofty goals that only the elite can reach. GUE teaches the exact same skills we learned in the DIRF class to ordinary off-the-street neophytes (pretty much like me) as part of their OW class. These student are taught that they CANNOT touch the bottom of the pool. They are taught to perform all the skills horizontally, without losing bouyancy, in the controlled environment of a pool, under the supervision of instructors. It is NOT too much to handle either for the students or the instructors. These ordinary students get out of their OW class looking like elite divers compared to all the rest of us. Every new diver should be taught this way. It can be done.
To answer some questions:
What skills are taught? This is in incomplete summary:
Attitude in the water. Why a horizontal attitude is important. How to acheive and maintain a horizontal attitude. How to tilt around your center of gravity to a head up or head down position.
Movement in the water. Why certain propulsion techniques are better than others, which techniques are appropriate in which environments. How of perform different kicks, such as frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick. How to reverse, how to rotate over a point, and why you might want to. Why you should not use your hands to move yourself underwater.
Bouyancy. Why you need to control your bouyancy. How to control your bouyancy.
Basic 4 skills. Regulator removal and replacement. Switching from the primary to the backup regulator and back. Flood and clear mask. Mask removal and replacement (with eyes closed to simulate a zero visibilty situation). All skills to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.
Safety drills. Out of air drills. Donation of primary regulator, switch to backup, control of out of air diver and gas supply, buddy air share while swimming, controlled ascent while air sharing. All to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.
Predive Planning and Procedures. Team equipment check while dry and in the water. Team dive planning- scenario, air supply, depth, distance, duration, decompression.
Valve drills. Open and close all valves underwater, maintaining proper attitude and bouyancy. Done for both single and double tanks.
Situational awareness. Understand and manage your equipment, environment and team. Know where you are, what you are doing, what is around you, what might go wrong, and what you will do when it does. How to swim with a buddy or group of buddies, maintaining constant communication, either actively or passively. How to follow a line. How to find a lost line. How to prioritize tasks in an emergency.
Equipment. How to fit harness and backplate. Hose routing and management. Hose lengths. Proper placement of equipment. Why, as opposed to whim and caprice, DIR equipment is configured the way it is.
Gas usage planning. Rock bottom and turn pressure tank psi for different size tanks, at different depths, under various dive conditions.
DIR philosophy. Why DIR is the way it is. Why it works. Why various alternatives are unsafe, or less efficient.
Another question was asked about where is the fun in going through all this? Of course the only reason we are in this sport is we want to have fun. But watching a body get hauled out of the water is not fun. It's less fun if it's your body. To be competent and confident in the water is the true way to have the most fun. This class will help you have fun.
I'll conclude this by saying thank you to Andrew, Mike and Dan for putting me on the road to being a better diver.
Bill
Thanks for the write up, and Welcome to the boards!!
I go back and forth between wanting to take DIRF and not wanting to.
Reading posts like yours pushes me toward the wanting to.
Maybe next year when my son has more experience, we can do it together.
Mike,
Hearing you say things like humbling and sobering, leads me to believe that DIR is something a lot of divers are working towards, but few really have mastered.
I go back and forth between wanting to take DIRF and not wanting to.
Reading posts like yours pushes me toward the wanting to.
Maybe next year when my son has more experience, we can do it together.
Mike,
Hearing you say things like humbling and sobering, leads me to believe that DIR is something a lot of divers are working towards, but few really have mastered.
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Hey Bill,
I was looking forward to hearing other views of the class. I'm glad you chose to continue as well. Maybe Jack, Detroit Diver, will chime in with his thoughts too. I see that Bob wrote his report on DiverLink.
Tavi, you're right.
Mike
I was looking forward to hearing other views of the class. I'm glad you chose to continue as well. Maybe Jack, Detroit Diver, will chime in with his thoughts too. I see that Bob wrote his report on DiverLink.
Tavi, you're right.
Mike
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