DIRF, A Sobering Experience

[psionicdfw]

sheck33 once bubbled...


welcome to the board. No i for one didnt feel attacked, you can think what you want. What is currently being ommitted that is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY are bouyancy skills, buddy awareness, air management and personal fitness. As for mom & pop that dive to 50 feet once a year, those divers are scary, they lack proficiency and confidence to be safe divers. GUE has stringent rules for diver fitness for good reasons, these rules should be more universally applied. Certifying that smoke so much they are panting by the time they have walked to the waters edge is ridiculous, i see it happen all the time. Certifying 10 year olds that can just barely carry their own equipment is insane, they cant help themselves let alone anyone else.

so, have fun diving

Sheck -

Actually, I addressed this question to Detroit Diver, since he was the one that made the statement concerning training agencies. However, since you commented I will respond.

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned - it's all about epidemiology. If PADI, NAUI, et al were teaching dangerous, and, or seriously deficient classes there would be much higher rates of diver accidents, but the numbers just aren't there. Sorry! Thus the statement that current popular diving instruction "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." is not only exaggeration, but is also incorrect as the facts do not bear this assertion out. DAN estimates the rate of diving accident as 1 in every 25,000-100,000 dives. Hardly rates indicative of training that is grossly negligent.

People on this board appear to be very emotional on these issues, and seem to be speaking from a place of emotion rather than one fully governed by logic. Yes, safety is much more important than debating over buying from Leisure Pro vs. LDS, or what color mask glass to buy. ANY training can be made more rigorous. Does this mean in every case it should be? Of course not. Driving a car is an inherently dangerous activity, and we would all surely benefit from increased instruction. Society has made a decision about what the proper level of training is. It’s cost vs. benefit. There will always be compromises between safety and expense - essentially "what is a life worth?" It's not a pleasant discussion, but it is one that has been held in many arenas; from EPA cleanup levels, to Detroit with car safety devices.

To bring this back to scuba - do I think that the popular agencies are teaching classes "lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." No - show me the bodies. You can't because they aren't there.

And this is what brings me back to my original comments about the attitudes that are pervasive on this board. The herding instincts and absolutist attitudes are sheer childishness. Very few things are purely good and very few are without any redeeming qualities. For MOST people PADI teaches an adequate class. If someone is a chain smoker and wants to dive that is their poor choice to make. I do agree with the age comments however. I think pre-teens lack the maturity necessary to handle crisis situations. I took my first dive when I was 12, and in retrospect I don't think it was wise.

In closing - think for yourself people. Just because a bunch of people on here love Apeks, doesn't mean it's the end all be all reg; just because GUE provides excellent advanced training doesn't mean it is for everyone,

Think with your brain, not your heart.

Peace,

Pete

 

[psionicdfw]

leadweight once bubbled...
Psionicdfw,

You understand the attitude of this board completely. It is the typical internet thing where a few people with similar opinions take over a forum or newsgroup. In this case it is a bunch who may be DIR technical divers. The most DIR thing about them is that they have GI3's holyer than thou attitude. Let the flames roar.

Leadweight, from Texas (the third coast).

Thanks for your comment, and I am sorry you were dragged into this. I feel I need to apologize to all of the people that post here. It certainly was not my intention to pick or start a fight. It was more so my inability to express myself with more tact and eloquence.

I just was very bothered by some of the attitudes indicative of an adversarial atmosphere rather than one of beneficence - and I certainly did nothing to help that. So if I upset or offended any of you please accept my apology.

I just hope that we can all at times take a step back and appreciate what an incredible sport we are involved in, and the number of high-quality people it attracts.

That’s all…..

Pete

 

[ElectricZombie]

I agree that OW classes taught by major organizations are for the most part not "seriously deficient"...but, they are deficient to a degree. They give you the very basic skills in diving, basically just enough not to kill yourself. I do not think this is enough. If you follow the written list of skills, etc given by each agency, I don't think any of them are appropriate. They are too dumbed down, and it then becomes the instructors job to correct this by adding additional skills and raising the bar. The Instructor is to exceed standards always, particularly if the standards are lacking anyway.

When I see people come out of OW and have no clue about bouyancy, something is wrong. When I see the instructor who is supposidly teaching bouyancy, yet is just as bad as his students, something is wrong. (Saw this today actually) Just because divers manage to get from point A to point B in a somewhat safe manner does not make them good divers. Somewhere along the line, the job is not getting done. Either standards need to be higher, or Instructors need to get better. Probably a combination of both.

As far as your DIR comments go, I will say this. Up until a few months ago, I did not even know what DIR was. I dove a ScubaPro X-Tech (Like a Zeagle or Dive Rite) and was perfectly happy. After finding out about DIR here, I decided to at least give it a shot to see if I liked it. I ended up really liking the DIR system, and will be using that from now on. It's logical and practical. So, was I being an unsafe diver all that time I used by ScubaPro BC? Of coarse not. The equiptment changed, not me or my skills or mindset. Some of the DIR people are a bit headstrong but, most of them are pretty cool. I think they feel this way because the system worked so well for them that they want to turn others on to it. Personally, someone being DIR or not really does not matter that much to me. I dive with non DIR people all the time. You dive your way, I'll dive mine. DIR works for me, maybe not so well for you. That's fine. No pressure either way.

 

[tombiowami]

I have only been diving a year, but have enought experience to answer your question about what is lacking in the basic OW classes by the current orgs.

A basic failure to force students to learn and execute skills hovering in good/perfect buoyancy/trim.

I learned the skills on my knees, on a platform.

The focus of the DIR Fund class is really just getting people to learn how to hover with little motion.

And yes, LY's post was a bit tongue in cheek IMO.




Tommy

 

[sheck33]

psionicdfw once bubbled...


Sheck -

Actually, I addressed this question to Detroit Diver, since he was the one that made the statement concerning training agencies. However, since you commented I will respond.

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned - it's all about epidemiology. If PADI, NAUI, et al were teaching dangerous, and, or seriously deficient classes there would be much higher rates of diver accidents, but the numbers just aren't there. Sorry! Thus the statement that current popular diving instruction "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." is not only exaggeration, but is also incorrect as the facts do not bear this assertion out. DAN estimates the rate of diving accident as 1 in every 25,000-100,000 dives. Hardly rates indicative of training that is grossly negligent.

To bring this back to scuba - do I think that the popular agencies are teaching classes "lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." No - show me the bodies. You can't because they aren't there..........................

Pete

There is another factor to consider here too and that is the fact that from the VAST numbers of people that are run through the certifying assembly-line in most diveshops only the smallest fraction continue to dive after their certification. Is it know what percentage of those 25,000 to 100,000 dives are done by newly certified divers? certification dives, i assume, are not counted here?

lets also look at what exactly we consider an 'accident'
i dont think i have seen it defined on the board yet. Do we only cosider those cases were a diver or divers got physically hurt and paramedics were called? If a diver screws up majorly but manages to escape unharmed it is not an accident?

maybe we should also define near-accident, which, as easy as it seems, is not that straightforward. How about a diver that looses bouyancy control, runs out of air but just barely manages to switch to a ponybottle, buddy not in sight, filled with a mix he was lucky enough to breath at the depth he was at. This diver escaped unharmed. But just because he managed to not kill himself was he SAFE???? NO he wasnt, far from it. This is a real life example. With the current levels of training i am utterly amazed, considering the numerous screwups like the one mentioned above i have seen, thatnot more divers get hurt.

statistics should be carefullyl interpreted. Just because there are no bodies doesnt prove safe diving is being praticed.

 

[psionicdfw]

sheck33 once bubbled...



There is another factor to consider here too and that is the fact that from the VAST numbers of people that are run through the certifying assembly-line in most diveshops only the smallest fraction continue to dive after their certification. Is it know what percentage of those 25,000 to 100,000 dives are done by newly certified divers? certification dives, i assume, are not counted here?

lets also look at what exactly we consider an 'accident'
i dont think i have seen it defined on the board yet. Do we only cosider those cases were a diver or divers got physically hurt and paramedics were called? If a diver screws up majorly but manages to escape unharmed it is not an accident?

maybe we should also define near-accident, which, as easy as it seems, is not that straightforward. How about a diver that looses bouyancy control, runs out of air but just barely manages to switch to a ponybottle, buddy not in sight, filled with a mix he was lucky enough to breath at the depth he was at. This diver escaped unharmed. But just because he managed to not kill himself was he SAFE???? NO he wasnt, far from it. This is a real life example. With the current levels of training i am utterly amazed, considering the numerous screwups like the one mentioned above i have seen, thatnot more divers get hurt.

statistics should be carefullyl interpreted. Just because there are no bodies doesnt prove safe diving is being praticed.

I agree - statistics should be carefully interpreted. When you acquire some statistics I would like to hear them. Currently all you have provided are assumptions and guesses.

I think you are probably correct in your thinking that what constitutes an accident is an incident in which medical intervention is required. As to who is doing this diving, I have no idea, but if the demographics from my local dive lake are any indication it's a broad spectrum of ages and experience.

I feel I made a well-reasoned, fair, and most importantly - impartial case. I have no agenda besides a discovery of facts. If your goal is to "win" a debate, it will be an empty victory as you are the only person competing. I have stated now multiple times that I AGREE WITH YOU that there are deficiencies in most training. Most classes are much too short, standards too low; and as tombiowami mentioned, performed on a platform.

In my OW class a woman was passed who had absolutely no buoyancy contral. Do I think she is a danger to herself? Possibly. It is dependant on the type of diving she does. I doubt she will ever encounter stage bottles as in your oddly tech-ish example (I thought we were discussing recreational diving). But she is also an adult. And like I have now also stated ad nauseum - Adults are allowed to do stupid things. Scuba is a self-regulated industry. Since you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should contact your Congressman and ask that he/she lobby for national certification standards. In the meantime, be glad that people are seeking training at all. It is not illegal to buy scuba equipment with no training, suit up, and jump in the ocean.

If you want to believe that the level of risk PADI grads expose themselves to when they dive is equivalent to having unprotected sex with IV drug using Haitian prostitutes while driving a Corvair (at any speed) then go for it. I have no desire to influence your opinion, however I am a scientist by training and occupation and until I at see at least some evidence of this enormous risk I see no reason to be up in arms, beating the bushes, and crying "What about the children!?!".

Ok, I am now officially sick of talking about this

 

[sheck33]

we have reached a level of agreement then

as for people being adults and being allowed to do stupid things, no problem, as long as it doesnt involve others and i dont have to pay there medicals bills. ut:

 

[ScubaDan]

I also agree with most here that OW classes lack good training in buoyancy control. As a new diver with only 2 other dives besides my OW dives I could use a lot of help in that area. At least I know that I need work in buoyancy control what about those that think they don’t now that there certified.

I would love to take a DIRF course to help with my buoyancy but I can not travel 1000 miles to attend one.

 

[roakey]

What's the distance from Kansas City to Santa Rosa, New Mexico?

There's a DIRF there November 15-17.

Roak

 

[Jarhead]

roakey once bubbled...
What's the distance from Kansas City to Santa Rosa, New Mexico?

There's a DIRF there November 15-17.

Roak

According to Mapquest - 776.87 miles