Dive boat operators face charges of illegally feeding sharks in state waters

[tropicalson]

I must have missed, "all the folks walking around telling everyone to go swim in a lake". It was singular statement.

You are right, I shouldn't suggest diving in a lake. There are amoeba in florida lakes that have killed more people than the "scary" shark frenzies.

Yawn.

 

[Wookie]

I must have missed, "all the folks walking around telling everyone to go swim in a lake". It was singular statement.

You are right, I shouldn't suggest diving in a lake. There are amoeba in florida lakes that have killed more people than the "scary" shark frenzies.

You are right, the last one was "stay in the shallow end". Apologies.

 

[The Chairman]

Hi NetDoc

The only comparison I can think of is what if someone started illegal and aggressive shark feeding/chumming operations in the middle of Molasses Reef, or on one of the Spiegel Grove mooring buoys, and was out there, day after day, feeding, chumming, spearing (putting aside the no-spear regulations, for sake of discussion) for no purpose except to destroy fish and put blood and thrashing in the water? Even more, they are successful so that Molasses and the Spiegel are now populated by reefies, lemons, bulls and tigers that show no hesitation about fast approaches to divers?

Let's be clear here. There is a "Creature Feature" here in the Keys and has been for over thirty years on the City of Washington which lies in Federal waters. The creatures include Jewfish, Morays, Nurse Sharks, Barracuda and anything else that happens by. I'm sure if other species of sharks showed up, they would be most welcome. I've always enjoyed myself at these. Shark feeding was pretty popular in this state before the ban back in 2002(???). No one died before the ban. However, somewhere between 25 and 30 people die in Scuba related accidents here in Monroe County (The Keys) on a yearly basis. The last year I heard statistics on, out of 29 deaths, only one was under 55. What? Why isn't this scary statistic plastered all over the media? It's not a shark. Old farts dying does not engender that atavistic fear in you.

How would the local divers and dive ops react to this? Would it be good overall for Monroe County dive tourism if there was a fatality or injury? Even if the reputation spread for aggressive sharks, would that be good for diving overall? Would tourists and vacation divers be put off? Would the small trade in thrillseekers make up for the lost business? What about the more basic question of decency which is raised by increasing the risk level, or even perceived risk level for regular divers who don't want yet another concern when crusing Molasses during their first dive in a year, or dealing with a current at 100' on the Spiegel?

This past year a Great White took up residence in Marathon Florida. It was hard to get a spot on a boat there to go diving during that time. Most divers simply love sharks. If you told me that a certain part of the Keys was simply lousy with them, I'd be getting my butt over there pronto and so would the dive ops.

Hey, I get that this is Scuba. Everything has to be discussed in life or death tones. "OMG! You wear split fins? You're gonna die!" "Whoa, you dive with BWOD (Bungeed Wings of Death)? You're gonna die!" "Why the hell aren't you wearing a backplate? You wanna kill yourself or something?" We joke about it all the time, but you know it's true. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion when people are dead set on destroying a couple of businesses who dare to not agree with you. I've even had someone PM me asking if I am defending Randy to fend off any potential legal issues. Shenanigans. I consider Randy Jordan a friend and a more than competent diver. To that point, I haven't really defended any of Randy's actions but I have played a bit of the devil's advocate. I'm not into vilifying or lynching people just because they disagree with me. Not even symbolically. The dive industry is plagued with the attitude that "If I don't dive, teach or sell it, it must be junk (deadly, bad, stupid, etc)". I'm not at all interested in that being a part of that mentality. Not even a smidgen.

Look at that aggressive reefy in the video I posted. Do you think Randy or the other op fed that shark? Take a moment and really look at that video. That shark was going for the guy's spear tip the whole time. Why? See, I've demonstrated that not every aggressive shark can be connected to Randy or Calypso. Well, I haven't, but the video has. No one addressed the inconvenient fact that there are hundreds of new spearos shooting Lionfish and that many of THEM feed sharks, turtles and any thing else that's swimming close. As I replied to the guy who PMed me about being worried about litigation: My legs are strong: but not from jumping to conclusions. My fingers are nimble but not from always trying to point blame at someone. I try to be reasonable in spite of the histrionics of popular public opinion. You keep looking for a scape goat: I want all of the truth.

 

[Amazz]

Disclaimer: Randy Jordan is one of my best friends. (Ducking as I write this.) I was diving with him the day he was ticketed. It was a hunting trip so there was no chumming or feeding. We did the Bonaire and Zion wrecks and had no sharks show up. I took some new divers to shark canyon yesterday on Stuart Scuba's new boat. We had plenty of sharks greet us. When they saw we didn't have any food they left. Reports of these sharks chasing divers out of the water are absurd. I have mixed feelings about the feeding if it's done in Federal Waters. I have done sharks dives with both operators, and honestly, they have been some of the best and most exciting dives of my life. I never felt threatened even when a lemon shark sniffed my camera strobe several times. However, do I think that somebody could get hurt with this practice.....ABSOLUTELY! That person will likely be Randy because he's the guy with the fish in his hand. Just like religion and politics....you're never going to change anybody's mind. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and some of the posters are starting to sound like a ridiculous broken record. Spearfishers have the most valid argument in this debate. Feeding sharks definitely makes spearfishing more hairy AT THESE PARTICULAR sites. Well damn, just don't fish at Shark Canyon, Tunnels, and Lemon Central. It's a big ocean out there.

 

[danvolker]

Disclaimer: Randy Jordan is one of my best friends. (Ducking as I write this.) I was diving with him the day he was ticketed. It was a hunting trip so there was no chumming or feeding. We did the Bonaire and Zion wrecks and had no sharks show up. I took some new divers to shark canyon yesterday on Stuart Scuba's new boat. We had plenty of sharks greet us. When they saw we didn't have any food they left. Reports of these sharks chasing divers out of the water are absurd. I have mixed feelings about the feeding if it's done in Federal Waters. I have done sharks dives with both operators, and honestly, they have been some of the best and most exciting dives of my life. I never felt threatened even when a lemon shark sniffed my camera strobe several times. However, do I think that somebody could get hurt with this practice.....ABSOLUTELY! That person will likely be Randy because he's the guy with the fish in his hand. Just like religion and politics....you're never going to change anybody's mind. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and some of the posters are starting to sound like a ridiculous broken record. Spearfishers have the most valid argument in this debate. Feeding sharks definitely makes spearfishing more hairy. Well damn, just don't fish at Shark Canyon, Tunnels, and Lemon Central. It's a big ocean out there.

To me this issue is not about whether the trips with Randy can be fun for you and your buddies...or even if you will be hungover the next day.

The issue is "Does Randy have the RIGHT to change shark behavior?"

There is no denying that what he does for a tiny group of divers, impacts a very large group of divers, and for a long time to come.

There is no denying he has made the sharks come in aggressively as common behavior now...and this is not good for new divers.....and just as obvious, Randy's shark feeding is completely destroying the enjoyment most spear fisherman get from hunting in Jupiter ( which after all IS the place for hunting--it has the best volume of large spearfishing targets). And since we already know bull sharks range for many hundreds of miles, Randy is effectively changing the behavior of sharks to as far away as Delray or even further. When someone gets attacked, Randy is going to have a Civil lawsuit filed against him, whether for negligence, or worse. This could cost him alot more than he has insurance for.

He does not have the right to change shark behavior. Since he is thumbing his nose at Law Enforcement, and he is thumbing his nose as the 95% of the Diving public that does NOT want shark feeding going on in Palm Beach waters---he is going to war with us.

The Spearfisherman probably have the best case, but unlike in 2003, this time they will have the wide support of the majority of recreational divers behind them--which they did not need to wipe out the shark feeds in 2003 ( whatever year it was back then).


P.S.
My wife Sandra is a pro photographer....I shoot Video....Neither of us feels we have the right to ruin diving for other divers by using a shark feed to get the crazy shots. Sandra has had her shots of big underwater life in many dozens of magazines....she would never risk the lives of new divers just so she could get a cover shot for a few rags. I don't think the pro shooters that have been going out on Randy's boat have really stopped to think about what is happening, and what they are endorsing....and/or, they may be like the commercial fisherman, that don't want to stop as long as there are others doing it....In any event, the pro photographers are a tiny little market segment --like a .00001 % share of divers that certainly does not have the right to ruin or endanger diving for the 99% of recreational divers without the skills to have an aggressive shark come in fast on them.

PPS..
If 95% of the drivers on I-95 feel that you and your buddy were RISKING the lives of everyone on I-95 by racing your cars at 175 mph through heavy 85 mph traffic....then a majority of people FEEL that you are RISKING their lives.....When a majority of divers feels you are Risking their lives with Shark Feeds changing shark behavior, this is the same thing. Can it be proven that your passing through 85mph traffic at 175 actually "endangered" anyone? I don't know that it will need to be, because when the majority feels you are a serious threat....Law Enforcement will ultimately be given the tools to terminate your endangering behaviors.

 

[The Chairman]

Yeah, Randy's guilty of global warming and the price of tea going down in China too. I bet we could throw in Obamacare and a slow economy if we work hard enough.

Does anyone have a right to feed sharks? In Federal waters it seems they do. If you want to effect change, then get the laws changed. The Federal laws that is.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

To me this issue is not about whether the trips with Randy can be fun for you and your buddies...or even if you will be hungover the next day.

The issue is "Does Randy have the RIGHT to change shark behavior?"

There is no denying that what he does for a tiny group of divers, impacts a very large group of divers, and for a long time to come.

There is no denying he has made the sharks come in aggressively as common behavior now...and this is not good for new divers.....and just as obvious, Randy's shark feeding is completely destroying the enjoyment most spear fisherman get from hunting in Jupiter ( which after all IS the place for hunting--it has the best volume of large spearfishing targets). And since we already know bull sharks range for many hundreds of miles, Randy is effectively changing the behavior of sharks to as far away as Delray or even further. When someone gets attacked, Randy is going to have a Civil lawsuit filed against him, whether for negligence, or worse. This could cost him alot more than he has insurance for.

He does not have the right to change shark behavior. Since he is thumbing his nose at Law Enforcement, and he is thumbing his nose as the 95% of the Diving public that does NOT want shark feeding going on in Palm Beach waters---he is going to war with us.

Dan, phrasing your arguments like this does not do much to bring me and others around to your viewpoint. It reminds me of why I don't watch TV news anymore or listen to talk radio. Frankly, one of the big issues I have with the anti-feeding arguments presented here is that they are shot full of holes.

First off, the "no denying" bit. Show me the evidence. Show me the video that features sharks hassling divers without food for handouts - and I mean unambiguously. I'm not going to buy accounts of rookie divers getting spooked because my God, they actually saw a shark at ten fin kicks and it looked at them for a minute before swimming off! Prove to me that sharks were avoiding spearfishermen with stringers full of bleeding fish before the feedings started. As stated, I would love to see a scientific study of whether or not feeding changes behavior towards humans. That would go a long ways towards settling this.

Second, if you're going to claim that the conditioning is the problem, and that the sharks' migratory patterns make it an issue over a wide area - why all the gushing praise over Jim Abernethy's dives at Tiger Beach? The sharks still get fed by humans, and according to the tracking work done at Tiger Beach those sharks cover a wide area. Don't give me the boilerplate about how the bait is cut and rinsed of blood rather than freshly speared. The sharks are still getting free food, and according to Guy during "Monster Madness" when they opened the crates up things got nuts enough for him to bug out. In other threads I've seen folks complaining about shark behavior near Tiger Beach just as you're complaining about shark behavior in Jupiter and Palm Beach. That smells more like knocking a competitor in the dive industry than having legitimate safety concerns about Randy's operation. I can say the same about another dive operator who's been criticizing Randy in public; a number of years ago said operator told me the feeding ban was BS (using the same arguments Randy does nowadays) and had no issue with spearing fish and sticking them under rocks at Shark Canyon. Said operator has been accusing Randy of conditioning the lemon sharks ... and then bragging about the number of sharks they were seeing without using bait. Guess they're happy to criticize him for increasing their own business if they truly believe that argument.

As stated, I am on the fence and am apprehensive about some of the shenanigans I've seen on videos from the Emerald. But I also have a near-pathological dislike of sloppy and contradictory reasoning, predetermined conclusions, and hypocrisy. I also find myself agreeing more with Randy's stated objective of reducing people's fear of sharks than the hysteria that this is going to turn into a Sci-Fi Original plot where his "pets" will terrorize the Palm Beach coastline for decades.

 

[Doug Kahle]

Dan:

This is truly amazing considering that you and I were on a boat last year in Palm Beach County waters where sharks were illegally fed. Do you remember that? If not, I can name the operation and the person illegally feeding the sharks; maybe that will help your memory. Because, I cannot believe that someone would be posting the things you are posting considering that you took part in an illegal shark feed last year. Perhaps you can comment on that? Is it ok if you participate in the illegal shark feeding?

Also, you asked if someone could facilitate a meeting between you and the Calypso people. Come one Dan, you're a big boy, you know where the boat docks and you could come by anytime you want. In fact, I've seen you drive by before but you failed to stop. Accordingly, I will facilitate the meeting. We will be at the dock, leaving at 7 am Saturday; please come by, we would love to talk to you.

Also, I hope you have a factual basis for making those statements about shark feeding on Breaker's Reef. You have not specifically identified anyone yet. In the world that I live in, we have names for lies, they go by the names of defamation, libel, and slander. Accordingly, I truly hope you can identify these so-called divers.

Finally, please tell me where these aggressive sharks are located. In almost 1,500 dives, I have never seen a shark make an aggressive move towards a diver. I will make you a deal, if you can show me where I can get close to a shark for a great pic without a dead fish, I will give you $1,000. Let's do this dive; I want to see it. I bet you wont because you are doing nothing but spewing lies.

And, don't forget, I want to hear your answer as to why it was ok for you to do an illegal shark feeding dive last year in Palm Beach County. If you attempt to lie and do not provide a satisfactory answer, I will name the operator, the person doing the illegal shark feeding, the date of the illegal shark feed, and the pics from the event. Don't be scared Dan; I want to hear your explanation.

 

[The Chairman]

First off, the "no denying" bit. Show me the evidence. Show me the video that features sharks hassling divers without food for handouts - and I mean unambiguously. I'm not going to buy accounts of rookie divers getting spooked because my God, they actually saw a shark at ten fin kicks and it looked at them for a minute before swimming off! Prove to me that sharks were avoiding spearfishermen with stringers full of bleeding fish before the feedings started. As stated, I would love to see a scientific study of whether or not feeding changes behavior towards humans. That would go a long ways towards settling this.

Now you're talking loco man. Why ask for facts when it's been nothing but emotional outbursts so far? The logic states "I believe it, so it must be true" and has morphed into "I believe it so there's no denying it!" I have seen no greater faith in all of the world to back the indignation and the willingness to stone Randy and the guys at Calypso.

Should laws be followed? Yeppers. There seems to be an issue about whether the incident took place in federal or state waters. If they don't like the laws, then get them changed. But, if someone is trying to operate within the law, then stop trying to assign motives that are simply not there.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, phrasing your arguments like this does not do much to bring me and others around to your viewpoint. It reminds me of why I don't watch TV news anymore or listen to talk radio. Frankly, one of the big issues I have with the anti-feeding arguments presented here is that they are shot full of holes.

First off, the "no denying" bit. Show me the evidence. Show me the video that features sharks hassling divers without food for handouts - and I mean unambiguously. I'm not going to buy accounts of rookie divers getting spooked because my God, they actually saw a shark at ten fin kicks and it looked at them for a minute before swimming off! Prove to me that sharks were avoiding spearfishermen with stringers full of bleeding fish before the feedings started. As stated, I would love to see a scientific study of whether or not feeding changes behavior towards humans. That would go a long ways towards settling this.

Second, if you're going to claim that the conditioning is the problem, and that the sharks' migratory patterns make it an issue over a wide area - why all the gushing praise over Jim Abernethy's dives at Tiger Beach? The sharks still get fed by humans, and according to the tracking work done at Tiger Beach those sharks cover a wide area. Don't give me the boilerplate about how the bait is cut and rinsed of blood rather than freshly speared. The sharks are still getting free food, and according to Guy during "Monster Madness" when they opened the crates up things got nuts enough for him to bug out. In other threads I've seen folks complaining about shark behavior near Tiger Beach just as you're complaining about shark behavior in Jupiter and Palm Beach. That smells more like knocking a competitor in the dive industry than having legitimate safety concerns about Randy's operation. I can say the same about another dive operator who's been criticizing Randy in public; a number of years ago said operator told me the feeding ban was BS (using the same arguments Randy does nowadays) and had no issue with spearing fish and sticking them under rocks at Shark Canyon. Said operator has been accusing Randy of conditioning the lemon sharks ... and then bragging about the number of sharks they were seeing without using bait. Guess they're happy to criticize him for increasing their own business if they truly believe that argument.

As stated, I am on the fence and am apprehensive about some of the shenanigans I've seen on videos from the Emerald. But I also have a near-pathological dislike of sloppy and contradictory reasoning, predetermined conclusions, and hypocrisy. I also find myself agreeing more with Randy's stated objective of reducing people's fear of sharks than the hysteria that this is going to turn into a Sci-Fi Original plot where his "pets" will terrorize the Palm Beach coastline for decades.

First, the "you need a scientific study" issue....all we need is to check with the large body of long time spearfisherman in Palm Beach....They are the ones most likely to see behavioral changes..not some scientist ( either in a lab, or in a few dozen dives that will be meaningless without the baseline of the last 20 or 30 years). The tobacco industry demanded a study also, to prove cigarette smoking was bad for you.....this added about 20 years of nonsense, to an issue that had a well known outcome.

As to Abernethy...Jim has been a pioneer in figuring out shark behaviors, and in determining the ideal ways to run shark encounters....he runs a serious volume of Shark dives in the Bahamas....and has for a decade. One thing he learned, is that he does not want divers in the water when the sharks get fed the bait after the last dive.....Sharks that get fed by fisherman don't associate this with divers, because there are no divers in the water at the time of the feeding...and the same with how Jim has been doing away with bait when they are all done....Years ago, this made sense, but in trying to make dives better and safer, they abandoned the Monster madness quite some time ago. I remember chatting with Jim about this last year when some shark issue had come up.....

Neither of these issues effects the heart of the matter....like the analogy I used before : "Can it be proven that your passing through 85mph traffic on I-95, with you traveling at 175 mph, actually "endangers" anyone?
I don't know that it will need to be proven.....
The majority of divers and spearfisherman feels Randy is creating a serious threat to them....Law Enforcement will ultimately be given the tools to terminate his endangering behaviors.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2014 at 03:59 PM ----------

Dan:

This is truly amazing considering that you and I were on a boat last year in Palm Beach County waters where sharks were illegally fed. Do you remember that? If not, I can name the operation and the person illegally feeding the sharks; maybe that will help your memory. Because, I cannot believe that someone would be posting the things you are posting considering that you took part in an illegal shark feed last year. Perhaps you can comment on that? Is it ok if you participate in the illegal shark feeding?

Also, you asked if someone could facilitate a meeting between you and the Calypso people. Come one Dan, you're a big boy, you know where the boat docks and you could come by anytime you want. In fact, I've seen you drive by before but you failed to stop. Accordingly, I will facilitate the meeting. We will be at the dock, leaving at 7 am Saturday; please come by, we would love to talk to you.

Also, I hope you have a factual basis for making those statements about shark feeding on Breaker's Reef. You have not specifically identified anyone yet. In the world that I live in, we have names for lies, they go by the names of defamation, libel, and slander. Accordingly, I truly hope you can identify these so-called divers.

Finally, please tell me where these aggressive sharks are located. In almost 1,500 dives, I have never seen a shark make an aggressive move towards a diver. I will make you a deal, if you can show me where I can get close to a shark for a great pic without a dead fish, I will give you $1,000. Let's do this dive; I want to see it. I bet you wont because you are doing nothing but spewing lies.

And, don't forget, I want to hear your answer as to why it was ok for you to do an illegal shark feeding dive last year in Palm Beach County. If you attempt to lie and do not provide a satisfactory answer, I will name the operator, the person doing the illegal shark feeding, the date of the illegal shark feed, and the pics from the event. Don't be scared Dan; I want to hear your explanation.

Doug,
I went on ONE dive, to see what this would be like--with "Bait" in the water, it was not a "shootfish and get the sharks excited dive" ....I don't compare this to doing 3 to 5 trips per week, and posting videos of the cobia being shot off of bullsharks on Youtube.

The issue I have been upset about, is the daily effect of shark feeds, every week, weather permitting in the last year, and into the next decade.
I see that as "changing" shark behavior. How fun that you are an attorney, and can play with legal nitpicking....
I am sure the first couple of months Randy ran his trips, the behavioral effects were negligible.

We are not talking about a few trips....or even a few months....In this thread we are talking about a guy that wants to do this full time, from now on for decades, and this would mean many other operations would do the same thing....

How can you not see the problem with this?

And as far as 7am on Saturday, that interferes with my bike ride..
However, I'd be fine seeing you and your buddies when the boat comes back in at noon or 1..whatever.....And I really think we should do this.......Also...to be honest, I never have noticed the boat you are referring to as one I have seen...(in re-reading..you are talking about Calypso....and I think this is Lake Park Marina...Yes? --Assuming after the trip is as good as before the trip.....?

And as an attempt to take the high road, if you can get this meeting to happen next weekend, I will hold off on more of my perspectives on this issue on SB, until after we meet.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2014 at 04:03 PM ----------

Finally, please tell me where these aggressive sharks are located. In almost 1,500 dives, I have never seen a shark make an aggressive move towards a diver. I will make you a deal, if you can show me where I can get close to a shark for a great pic without a dead fish, I will give you $1,000. Let's do this dive; I want to see it. I bet you wont because you are doing nothing but spewing lies.

I think there are several dives from Juno to Jupiter where I could bring a speargun, and just shoot the spear off into the sand...and this should bring in sharks.....If we need to do this dive...then we will do it....but first, lets do the meeting.