Dive Leader Loyalty? - What would you do?

[Dirty-Dog]

My assessment: Canyondreamer had enough margin to not have to choose between leaving the group or running out of air. Had things been much closer, he should have ascended. As it was, his though process was clear and he did the right thing.
DivemasterDennis

Really? You think that arriving at the surface with 50PSI is a good choice?

He did a lot of things right, but staying down as long as he did was definately not one of them.

 

[Doc Harry]

Another option would be to ascend to your 15 foot safety stop and wait there for the rest of the group. You gas consumption will be extremely low at 15 feet, so you'll be able to hang out there for quite a while.

At 15 feet you are also within easy striking distance of the surface when your gas drops to 300-500 psi.

You have just gotta watch out for passing boats when you're hanging out at a shallow depth.

 

[odblnt]

Another option would be to ascend to your 15 foot safety stop and wait there for the rest of the group. You gas consumption will be extremely low at 15 feet, so you'll be able to hang out there for quite a while.

At 15 feet you are also within easy striking distance of the surface when your gas drops to 300-500 psi.

You have just gotta watch out for passing boats when you're hanging out at a shallow depth.

I've done that on a drift dive. Viz was great, so I had no problems watching everybody else. The DMC swimming caboose had let loose the sausage on a line, so I just did my safety stop holding on to the line and swimming along watching everybody else.

 

[RonFrank]

When diving outside of a class you are responsible for your dive and to your son/buddy (as a father a top priority IMO). Beyond that your DM, and other members of the group do not account for squat. Keep in mind if you run out of air and die no one is going to step up and take responsibility. Running out of air is the number 1 reason for diving accidents.

It does not matter who you are diving with, you are responsible for your dive. Remember that always, and follow your training.

 

[freewillie]

Just to play devil's advocate. You discuss gas management during predive routine. At "x" psi you start to ascend for safety stop. At 700 psi you give the DM the thumbs up to ascend. He gives the OK expecting you to ascend at that time, expecting to handle the buoyancy situation with the other two divers and ascend later to pick you up even though you are now separated from the group. He may have looked over seeing you thinking you were supposed to have been making your ascent already.

For drift dives you should have at minimum your own SMB and whistle. Extra credit for mirror, and bonus point for dye marker. To be really safe if you can get one of those GPS Nautilus units and call the dive boat directly.

But, you have to be on the surface to use those safety devices. You also have to be on the surface to breath if you are OOG. I agree with the others your own safety comes first. Inadvertent separation is easy to fix, drowning is not. But, I don't think you have to be so rude as to give a middle finger salute before you surface. Give the DM the low on air sign, then let him know you are surfacing so he knows what you are doing. It's his responsibility then to come find you when he surfaces with the rest of the group.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

As a quick response to DirtyDog, I say yes, under all the circumstances, including the diver's experience level, being at the safety stop, with a buddy, with 300 psi was acceptable. Not ideal, but ok. Nor should a person make a habit of that. The margin of air left in reserve is for circumstances like this, so that at the surface and before, you actually have more than zero. Nor do I suggest you make a habit of breathing a tank that low by the time you surface. Plan to surface with 500 psi or more. Then, when things are not ideal, as the original post presents, you have that air to "get home safe." And that's what he did.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Bubbletrubble]

As a quick response to DirtyDog, I say yes, under all the circumstances, including the diver's experience level, being at the safety stop, with a buddy, with 300 psi was acceptable. Not ideal, but ok.

I don't know if I would use the phrase "under all the circumstances."
There are certainly mitigating factors that "thinking" divers would be aware of...which might make being at a safety stop with a buddy with 300 psi rather unacceptable.

Surfacing with less than 300 psi limits the gas options available to the diver. Some might argue: "Why does the diver need anymore tank gas? He's already made it to the surface. The dive is over and he's safe, right?" I can think of at least three situations where a diver might need to re-descend or have more tank gas to exit the water safely: (1) having to avoid boat traffic at the surface, (2) having to protect his airway given "rough" water conditions at the surface, and (3) having to swim underneath a dense kelp canopy or other overhead-type hazard in order to make it to the dive boat or shore. If a diver wants to allow for such situations, a strong argument can be made for surfacing with more than 300 psi in his tank. In fact, in the aforementioned situations, it might make sense to surface with significantly more than 500 psi.

I think one of the obvious problems that Canyondreamer51 had on the dive in question was that he didn't prioritize his needs properly. He should have placed a higher priority on "ascending with a comfortable amount of gas" than "following what he perceived to be the DM's instructions." If given the choice between surfacing with a "safe" amount of air in my tank or remaining with the DM-led dive group, in the vast majority of cases, I'm going to choose surfacing with a "safe" amount of air.

 

[BaaBee D]

" I again signaled the DM at 60 feet that I should start my ascend, he gave me the "OK" sign "
I would have ok'd and two thumbs up and gone.
No need to lose your cool. Just do what you can to let the DM know and take care of you and your buddy. Your safety trumps the DM mostly all the time.

 

[Canyondreamer51]

That's how you learn to dive.... "WOW I don't think I will be doing that again real soon".

Ain't that the truth! - Appreciate the many comments - definitely will surface regardless, with a buddy, next time the DM be damned.

Interesting thing about the buddy though, as when you go out on a group dive in OW as a newly certified diver, I noticed that you are not "buddied" up, you are just told by the DM "stay with me and make sure I can see you at all times". This happened with the 3 first different outfits I have been out with (1 in Europe, 2 on Hawaii). In my inexperience at the time, I really didn't question the implied no-need for an identified buddy

On this particular dive, #25 overall or so, I was diving with my son and wife and we had not been asked to, nor pre-arranged, who was buddy for whom, and we sort of went our separate ways within the dictate of being in sight of the DM, so in me trying to decide wehether to stay with the DM as my air fizzled out, or go up with enough for contingencies, it included the assumption that I would have go up on my own, which I knew was another no-no! - Now that I am a little more experienced, I know I need to clarify pre-dive with my own diving group (we were 3) that we need to pre-arrange that if one of us have to defy the DM and need to go up, before the entire group is ready, it will be with a buddy that we identified pre-dive (or all 3 stay down together or surface together). We were just to inexperienced to have figured that out at the time.

dumpsterdiver hit it on the nai with the quote above!!

(None of this has deterred me and my son from continuing to dive our lungs thin together!)

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Interesting thing about the buddy though, as when you go out on a group dive in OW as a newly certified diver, I noticed that you are not "buddied" up, you are just told by the DM "stay with me and make sure I can see you at all times". This happened with the 3 first different outfits I have been out with (1 in Europe, 2 on Hawaii). In my inexperience at the time, I really didn't question the implied no-need for an identified buddy

@Canyondreamer51: Dive ops which allow their DMs to operate like this are placing novice divers (trained only to dive with a buddy) at great risk.

On this particular dive, #25 overall or so, I was diving with my son and wife and we had not been asked to, nor pre-arranged, who was buddy for whom, and we sort of went our separate ways within the dictate of being in sight of the DM, so in me trying to decide wehether to stay with the DM as my air fizzled out, or go up with enough for contingencies, it included the assumption that I would have go up on my own, which I knew was another no-no! - Now that I am a little more experienced, I know I need to clarify pre-dive with my own diving group (we were 3) that we need to pre-arrange that if one of us have to defy the DM and need to go up, before the entire group is ready, it will be with a buddy that we identified pre-dive (or all 3 stay down together or surface together). We were just to inexperienced to have figured that out at the time.

The divers themselves are responsible for determining buddy teams before the dive starts. Do not abdicate this responsibility to anyone else. If a diver is a single on a boat, it's perfectly reasonable to request the DM to pair him up with another lone diver or another 2-person dive team. In such a case, take the DM's recommendation for your buddy as a suggestion. Talk to the other diver and make sure that both of you are on the same page (compatible as divers). Then go through all of the necessary pre-dive planning you normally do. This can take a fair amount of time (15 min.?).

The greatest probability of encountering a dive-related issue occurs during initial descent and during ascent to the surface. In those situations, novice divers tend to lose buoyancy control due to inability to adjust to: (1) dynamic gas compression/expansion and (2) compression/expansion of neoprene. It is critical that buddies stay close to one another during these phases of the dive.

If you are buddied up with your son and wife, I would recommend that you begin the dive and end the dive together...always. The end of the dive is defined as when the diver exits the water safely. I wouldn't allow a buddy to ascend solo and swim back to the boat on his/her own. It's also not a good idea to allow 1 diver of a 3-person team to continue a dive if the other 2 have decided to abort the dive. Chances are that the newly single diver will get "buddied" up with DM. That's not a good idea because the DM has many different responsibilities on the dive: leading the group, making sure there aren't any stragglers, chasing down divers who are straying too far away, monitoring gas usage of various divers (sometimes), etc. That's spreading the DM's attention very thinly across those responsibilities. The diver buddied up with the DM often gets ignored. Is all of that really worth a few more minutes of bottom time on a dive?

Something to think about....