Dive story told over the weekend
- Thread starter tddfleming
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Ana
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KarolinaKid
Contributor
In conclusion, what we have here are two inexperienced divers...and one very inexperienced husband...
CT Sean
Contributor
My wife and I are divers of similar experience based on dive count and several of our earliest dives were at a local quarry. In my opinion there is nothing simple about descending through a thermocline if you aren't familiar with it (or worse - aren't expecting it). It gets pretty cold pretty fast and viz goes to almost nothing. I'm also familiar with that sinking aspect the wife experienced - don't know why but it seems like entering the thermocline corresponds with a noticeable need to add BC air - but maybe that's just me (and her).
On the assumption that this was a first or near first encounter with a thermocline it's very possible the sudden temp and viz changes "distracted" the wife enough to forget to add air until she was really dropping.
Regarding the actual question "Should the husband gone down to help wife," There's no good answer - As others pointed out if he tries, there might be 2 victims rather than just one. If he doesn't try, and she does NOT rescue herself then he spends the rest of his life questioning his choice. If she DOES survive - well that just might be worse for him than if she hadn't. The obvious solution is to descend together and avoid, or at least reduce, the possibility of one diver in distress and out of reach
Now if it were me in that situation, with "only" 10 - 15 feet between me and my distressed wife, I like to believe I am going to attempt to reach her unless I'm certain of my own demise.
On the assumption that this was a first or near first encounter with a thermocline it's very possible the sudden temp and viz changes "distracted" the wife enough to forget to add air until she was really dropping.
Regarding the actual question "Should the husband gone down to help wife," There's no good answer - As others pointed out if he tries, there might be 2 victims rather than just one. If he doesn't try, and she does NOT rescue herself then he spends the rest of his life questioning his choice. If she DOES survive - well that just might be worse for him than if she hadn't. The obvious solution is to descend together and avoid, or at least reduce, the possibility of one diver in distress and out of reach
Now if it were me in that situation, with "only" 10 - 15 feet between me and my distressed wife, I like to believe I am going to attempt to reach her unless I'm certain of my own demise.
SeaSoulSelf
Contributor
This is one of those issues that really can bug me. My father taught me to to be very independent (change oil, bait hooks, etc etc), so I tend to get rankled by the "my husband should rescue me" attitude that comes from some female divers paired with spouse/buddy. GRRRR.
As a diver, it is my responsibility to recognize issues and address them for myself unless I need assistance. It is also my responsibility to be able to provide assistance to my buddy.
I will admit to not always being the greatest buddy as far as distance (camera, yes -- I know), but I am doing my best to improve. And we have had candid conversations about potential scenarios. I took rescue last December to improve my level of confidence so that if something every happened during our dives, I would be better equipped mentally to think and react properly. (My buddy/DH doesn't see the need for the additional training, but that is his choice - I'm not going to nag him about it.)
In my opinion, both divers need more training and need to have an open and honest discussion on the definition of "dive buddy". And they both need to evaluate what caused their panic.
Agree with a lot of the previous comments.... and I think they are both very lucky.
As a diver, it is my responsibility to recognize issues and address them for myself unless I need assistance. It is also my responsibility to be able to provide assistance to my buddy.
I will admit to not always being the greatest buddy as far as distance (camera, yes -- I know), but I am doing my best to improve. And we have had candid conversations about potential scenarios. I took rescue last December to improve my level of confidence so that if something every happened during our dives, I would be better equipped mentally to think and react properly. (My buddy/DH doesn't see the need for the additional training, but that is his choice - I'm not going to nag him about it.)
In my opinion, both divers need more training and need to have an open and honest discussion on the definition of "dive buddy". And they both need to evaluate what caused their panic.
Agree with a lot of the previous comments.... and I think they are both very lucky.
DevonDiver
N/A
Ok... will break this down as I see it...
The couple went on what sounds to be an easy dive at a quarry. No such thing as an 'easy dive' when you have this little experience. Skills are not embedded and confidence has not been developed to a stage where stress/panic won't emerge if anything goes wrong. For novice divers, the dangers are primarily due to psychological thresholds, rather than physical risks.
They were decending when husband thumbed the dive, starts the ascent....Badly performed procedure and not as taught. The decision to abort the dive is sensible, but the diver should communicate this, get an affirmative response and then the team ascend together.
...while husband watches from above while wife is kicking and in a panic and just keeps sinking. At this stage, there is potential danger to the wife. The husband is observing the wife in difficulty. However, they are still in visual contact - so I assume that the husband was able to make a judgement call about the risk to his wife vs the risk of descending to assist her. I would also assume that if she sank out of view, or if she was in direct danger (lost/spat her reg etc) then his decision would have changed.
Husband explains that while decending, he had some sort of a weird feeling, as soon as he went through the thermocline, where his chest started to pound and a feeling of frecking out. This explains his reluctance to re-descend. It could have been a medical issue. That said, he would have been safer (as would his wife) if they had ascended together. If it was a medical condition, he would have needed his wife's assistance immediately.
Wife was able to get herself under control and they dove a shallower depth, without incident.Not sure of the timescale of this - but the seriousness of this incident, coupled with the husband's sensations on the dive, should have warranted exiting the water and fully debriefing the incident before diving again. Not the sort of thing to shrug off. Divers shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact of an incident like this...pushing on regardless can be a bad judgement call.
However, I was told that when these two were talking the next day about what happened, as the wife was upset with herself for not realizing how to fix the problem, it was said that with the neg. buoyancy, along with the dive being thumbed and husband leaving leaving her at depth,... Illustrates (again) my last point. Not a good mindset for continued safe diving.
...when they were discussing this, wife wanted to know why husband did not come down to help, Divers must recognise that there can be reasons why another diver might opt not to re-descend etc. In this case, her husband may have taken a prudent course of action - whether physically or psychologically he was not in a fit state to effect assistance and may have made the situation worse.
... husband, replied, "what did you want me to do, I was only 10-15 feet away from you." Well, that doesn't constitute an effective range from which to render assistance. However, the husband was making a judgement call about the risk to himself versus the risk to his wife. He had encountered worrying (possibly medical) physical sensations and may have felt that re-descending could be an immediate danger to himself. His wife was struggling, but not (it seems) in any immediate danger. He was proved right (maybe more by luck than judgement).
The wife, told me that she said, "just let me drown." I don't think that it is very productive to level blame in this instance. I doubt very much that the husband would have done that. First thing that divers learn on a Rescue course (or any first-aid course) is not to put yourself in danger. Wife should be empathetic about her husband's state of mind during that incident. She should also be aware that he was monitoring her and hadn't abandoned her.
If the situation had become more serious, the husband would have been ideally placed to raise alarm at the surface, before re-descending. If he had just rushed down in the first instance, then both divers could have been in trouble, with no support likely to arrive. As he hadn't raised the alarm, it's fair to assume that he hadn't yet viewed the situation as an emergency.
I am not sure if this person was just wanting to air what happened or what, but it started me thinking about what makes a good buddy or not. There's a lot of learning points from this - buddy skills is just one of them. The husband had an issue and felt the need to immediately ascend. Ideally, the ascent should have been as a buddy team. The wife hadn't controlled her buoyancy on ascent. She was not situationally aware. She was not able to render assistance to her husband when he needed it. That was the root of the problem. Then she expected him to re-descend to assist her. For all she knew, he could have been having a heart attack. He wasn't, but he was obviously very psychologically unsettled and borderline on panic.
It also started me thinking about how to handle an issue such as this, when 2 people are diving and both start down the panic cycle, does this happen much? I think it probably happens in 99% of serious diving accidents...
My biggest issues with this story: Should the husband gone down to help wife, since he himself stated that he had some issue with the dive? No, he shouldn't. She was having difficulties. Assistance would have been 'nice'. But at that time he was near-panic and concerned about his physical condition. He made a risk assessment and felt that her situation wasn't severe enough to warrant more risk to himself. That risk assessment may have changed if her predicament got worse. Who knows what might have happened if he re-descended? If he had descended, and had got into further difficulties himself, then he..or both of them...may have died.
As I was told, that the husband later told his wife that he noticed she was having issues. He could see that she was sinking. I think this person would like some feedback and at this point don't know what to tell her. He saw her having buoyancy difficulties. Nothing more, nothing less. In contrast, he was concerned over his physical condition and had experienced worrying symptoms at depth. He decided not to put himself (and her) at further risk, because she only needed assistance... not rescue (she was in no immediate danger).
Basically... he was possibly right not to re-descend to provide assistance. If her situation had worsened, and she had required rescue, then he could have re-evaluated that decision. It's impossible to second-guess his decisions, so she shouldn't attempt to do that.
Neither should she level criticism at him for his failure to assist her. After all, where was she when he needed assistance?
Both are novice divers. They should recognise their (obvious) limitations and not have over-expectations about how they are likely to perform in the water. It's a great learning experience for them - and both should recognise the need for further/remedial training. Neither should make assumptions about the others' capability.
The wife also needs to understand the difference between assistance and rescue. She shouldn't expect anyone, not even her husband, to put themselves in danger if she needs assistance. Rescue is a different matter - but not one that was applicable in this instance.
A panicked diver is a panicked diver. Sadly, the wife must accept that her husband isn't superman... and treat that 'revelation' with a respectful and understanding attitude.
Again... there is no such thing as an 'easy dive'. It only takes one small unforeseen event to cause stress...and stress turns to panic very easy for the inexperienced. Panic is what kills people.
The couple went on what sounds to be an easy dive at a quarry. No such thing as an 'easy dive' when you have this little experience. Skills are not embedded and confidence has not been developed to a stage where stress/panic won't emerge if anything goes wrong. For novice divers, the dangers are primarily due to psychological thresholds, rather than physical risks.
They were decending when husband thumbed the dive, starts the ascent....Badly performed procedure and not as taught. The decision to abort the dive is sensible, but the diver should communicate this, get an affirmative response and then the team ascend together.
...while husband watches from above while wife is kicking and in a panic and just keeps sinking. At this stage, there is potential danger to the wife. The husband is observing the wife in difficulty. However, they are still in visual contact - so I assume that the husband was able to make a judgement call about the risk to his wife vs the risk of descending to assist her. I would also assume that if she sank out of view, or if she was in direct danger (lost/spat her reg etc) then his decision would have changed.
Husband explains that while decending, he had some sort of a weird feeling, as soon as he went through the thermocline, where his chest started to pound and a feeling of frecking out. This explains his reluctance to re-descend. It could have been a medical issue. That said, he would have been safer (as would his wife) if they had ascended together. If it was a medical condition, he would have needed his wife's assistance immediately.
Wife was able to get herself under control and they dove a shallower depth, without incident.Not sure of the timescale of this - but the seriousness of this incident, coupled with the husband's sensations on the dive, should have warranted exiting the water and fully debriefing the incident before diving again. Not the sort of thing to shrug off. Divers shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact of an incident like this...pushing on regardless can be a bad judgement call.
However, I was told that when these two were talking the next day about what happened, as the wife was upset with herself for not realizing how to fix the problem, it was said that with the neg. buoyancy, along with the dive being thumbed and husband leaving leaving her at depth,... Illustrates (again) my last point. Not a good mindset for continued safe diving.
...when they were discussing this, wife wanted to know why husband did not come down to help, Divers must recognise that there can be reasons why another diver might opt not to re-descend etc. In this case, her husband may have taken a prudent course of action - whether physically or psychologically he was not in a fit state to effect assistance and may have made the situation worse.
... husband, replied, "what did you want me to do, I was only 10-15 feet away from you." Well, that doesn't constitute an effective range from which to render assistance. However, the husband was making a judgement call about the risk to himself versus the risk to his wife. He had encountered worrying (possibly medical) physical sensations and may have felt that re-descending could be an immediate danger to himself. His wife was struggling, but not (it seems) in any immediate danger. He was proved right (maybe more by luck than judgement).
The wife, told me that she said, "just let me drown." I don't think that it is very productive to level blame in this instance. I doubt very much that the husband would have done that. First thing that divers learn on a Rescue course (or any first-aid course) is not to put yourself in danger. Wife should be empathetic about her husband's state of mind during that incident. She should also be aware that he was monitoring her and hadn't abandoned her.
If the situation had become more serious, the husband would have been ideally placed to raise alarm at the surface, before re-descending. If he had just rushed down in the first instance, then both divers could have been in trouble, with no support likely to arrive. As he hadn't raised the alarm, it's fair to assume that he hadn't yet viewed the situation as an emergency.
I am not sure if this person was just wanting to air what happened or what, but it started me thinking about what makes a good buddy or not. There's a lot of learning points from this - buddy skills is just one of them. The husband had an issue and felt the need to immediately ascend. Ideally, the ascent should have been as a buddy team. The wife hadn't controlled her buoyancy on ascent. She was not situationally aware. She was not able to render assistance to her husband when he needed it. That was the root of the problem. Then she expected him to re-descend to assist her. For all she knew, he could have been having a heart attack. He wasn't, but he was obviously very psychologically unsettled and borderline on panic.
It also started me thinking about how to handle an issue such as this, when 2 people are diving and both start down the panic cycle, does this happen much? I think it probably happens in 99% of serious diving accidents...
My biggest issues with this story: Should the husband gone down to help wife, since he himself stated that he had some issue with the dive? No, he shouldn't. She was having difficulties. Assistance would have been 'nice'. But at that time he was near-panic and concerned about his physical condition. He made a risk assessment and felt that her situation wasn't severe enough to warrant more risk to himself. That risk assessment may have changed if her predicament got worse. Who knows what might have happened if he re-descended? If he had descended, and had got into further difficulties himself, then he..or both of them...may have died.
As I was told, that the husband later told his wife that he noticed she was having issues. He could see that she was sinking. I think this person would like some feedback and at this point don't know what to tell her. He saw her having buoyancy difficulties. Nothing more, nothing less. In contrast, he was concerned over his physical condition and had experienced worrying symptoms at depth. He decided not to put himself (and her) at further risk, because she only needed assistance... not rescue (she was in no immediate danger).
Basically... he was possibly right not to re-descend to provide assistance. If her situation had worsened, and she had required rescue, then he could have re-evaluated that decision. It's impossible to second-guess his decisions, so she shouldn't attempt to do that.
Neither should she level criticism at him for his failure to assist her. After all, where was she when he needed assistance?
Both are novice divers. They should recognise their (obvious) limitations and not have over-expectations about how they are likely to perform in the water. It's a great learning experience for them - and both should recognise the need for further/remedial training. Neither should make assumptions about the others' capability.
The wife also needs to understand the difference between assistance and rescue. She shouldn't expect anyone, not even her husband, to put themselves in danger if she needs assistance. Rescue is a different matter - but not one that was applicable in this instance.
A panicked diver is a panicked diver. Sadly, the wife must accept that her husband isn't superman... and treat that 'revelation' with a respectful and understanding attitude.
Again... there is no such thing as an 'easy dive'. It only takes one small unforeseen event to cause stress...and stress turns to panic very easy for the inexperienced. Panic is what kills people.
Sabanist
Contributor
Im not automatically going to blame lack of experience for their issues. Panic can set in on everyone.
I would def had gone back for my wife, even at the risk of drowning.
But ive been in emercency situations, not in diving but other situations.
But if the guy screwed up and left her. Rather than make excuses, just apologize and admit he effed up. Learn from it
I would def had gone back for my wife, even at the risk of drowning.
But ive been in emercency situations, not in diving but other situations.
But if the guy screwed up and left her. Rather than make excuses, just apologize and admit he effed up. Learn from it
I see this a lot less as a man/woman thing (aside from the husband wife comments), than a good buddy, good training issue. NOT good form to lose your buddy, or watch them die, even IF they are the same gender as you. IJS.
DevonDiver
N/A
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Crush
Contributor
By definition, any husband is always wrong. Whether or not he made any errors is irrelevant.
The first mistakes may have been not being aware of each other and not being in control of their descent. When the husband thumbed the dive his wife had to respond to indicate that she understood and would comply. At that point both should have established neutral buoyancy while carefully watching each other. Once neutral buoyancy was established, they should have surfaced together, again watching each other. Should he have gone back down for her? Possibly - that is very situation-dependent. However, they should not have separated in the first place.
The first mistakes may have been not being aware of each other and not being in control of their descent. When the husband thumbed the dive his wife had to respond to indicate that she understood and would comply. At that point both should have established neutral buoyancy while carefully watching each other. Once neutral buoyancy was established, they should have surfaced together, again watching each other. Should he have gone back down for her? Possibly - that is very situation-dependent. However, they should not have separated in the first place.
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