GTADiver
Contributor
My sources are excellent. I suggest you check yours. The instructor (initials PL) now a PADI Course Director was instructing the course for KDS, off of KDS's boat. A boat that had no VHF Maritime radio, no oxygen, etc etc.
Diver Dies in Long Sault
- Thread starter divebuddydale
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Because lately lots of these divers are being injured while in training or otherwise under the direct supervision of an instructor. The instructor is responsible for making sure that the divers skills are up to the planned dive and they are responsible for controling the situation if they were wrong.
If a diver is adequately prepared and they decide to go off and do something silly it isn't the instructors fault.
Divers don't know what they don't know and I think they don't know a lot.
taz22
Contributor
Are you sure that the instructor on this course and the one in question was a PADI CD. My info is different than that, and my info comes from a few different very reliable sources.
GTADiver
Contributor
Hi Tazz, you are correct it is different instructors. Same dive shop but different instructors.
taz22
Contributor
Thanks GTA for the clarification.
As stated, I'll comment more on this accident and what I know and have heard once the investigation has been complete and the report issued.
Honestly Mike, you still having this debate? Well, since i've been away from this board for awhile, i'll fire off my opinion as another instructors opinion. For what it's worth some newer posters may not have heard it.
First, you tend to make it sound like all agencies standards and their instructors are inadequate to safely train divers. I simply don't agree with the scope of what you seem to be saying. I agree that standards could be improved, that Q&A of instructor performance could be improved but IMO it ain't as busted as you infer. If it was that broken, people should be dropping like flies and that ain't happening.
I know your argument of "it ain't happening because most people dive with supervision" but honestly, how many full blown emergencies can you handle at once? One? .... yeah, me too. If the training and standards were that bad, no Dm or instructor would have enough hands to deal with all the blow outs that would be happening.
That is even more true in some other countries besides the US. I've had DM's in some places, your lucky to see during the dive let alone expect any help from. You think those guys are postioned well enough to help the poorly trained diving masses. Not!
Lastly, you know i respect your opinion Mike but it seems you only want to blame the agencies and instructors for accidents that happen. Again i respectfully disagree. What about individual diver responsibilty? You have been teaching long enough that you can't honestly believe that divers don't make mistakes from time to time, regardless of training. It's human nature, we screw up.
Long time no see (read)
Yes, I'm still at it. Just to bring you up to speed for three weekends in a row EMS has responded to Gilbos. One that I know for certain is dead. The one this Saturday was a student in an advanced class. It shouldn't have happened, IMO. One was participating in a supervised dive in the DUI dry suit demo. The third I don't know about.
Sorry but where I live they are dropping like flies. Just exactly like them and as if they had less value.
Hell it's ok with me if it's ok with the rest of you. I wouldn't change a thing.
Howdy Mike,
The last thing i care to do is minimize any accident or any death related to the sport i love. IMO, every one of them is tragic. However, i would respectfully argue that at least part of the cause, in all cases was probably "the diver" not the agency or instructor. I don't know the facts in any of the cases but have been around long enough that i feel safe making that statement.
I wonder, since i admittedly have no data about this, is the accident rate per capita diver going up or down? I can only go by what we see up here. Lots of great lakes diving going on and i don't see the injury rate going up. And there is a lot more diving going on than 20 or even 10 years ago.
I know we are not going to agree on this Mike but you don't have to try to fire up the board to come after me.
The last thing i care to do is minimize any accident or any death related to the sport i love. IMO, every one of them is tragic. However, i would respectfully argue that at least part of the cause, in all cases was probably "the diver" not the agency or instructor. I don't know the facts in any of the cases but have been around long enough that i feel safe making that statement.
I wonder, since i admittedly have no data about this, is the accident rate per capita diver going up or down? I can only go by what we see up here. Lots of great lakes diving going on and i don't see the injury rate going up. And there is a lot more diving going on than 20 or even 10 years ago.
I know we are not going to agree on this Mike but you don't have to try to fire up the board to come after me.
gedunk once bubbled...
Howdy Mike,
The last thing i care to do is minimize any accident or any death related to the sport i love. IMO, every one of them is tragic. However, i would respectfully argue that at least part of the cause, in all cases was probably "the diver" not the agency or instructor. I don't know the facts in any of the cases but have been around long enough that i feel safe making that statement.
I wonder, since i admittedly have no data about this, is the accident rate per capita diver going up or down? I can only go by what we see up here. Lots of great lakes diving going on and i don't see the injury rate going up. And there is a lot more diving going on than 20 or even 10 years ago.
I know we are not going to agree on this Mike but you don't have to try to fire up the board to come after me.
Sorry. I don't want any one going after you. I know you beter than to think you would trivialize an accident or death.
I don't know for certain about the per capita rate other than the DAN report and what I see. I think the latest DAN report does show an increase in the number of injuries but for a single year and without knowing the number of dives or the number of divers it's hard to identify the mathmatical significance of that.
It wouldn't surprise me if some of this is region specific. However the season is yet yong at Gilboa. Keep in minf two of the three for certain were under supervision (don't know what happened with the third). This one in Long Sault was also a student under supervission. Maybe I have to start diving in your area cause I don't want anything to do with mine anymore.
It's funny almost. I complain so often about the junk I see at Gilboa especially AOW classes on the deep side. Divers die and are injured doing exactly that and we discuss it like it's the first one.
The first drop of rain that hits you is some one elses fault. The second one is your own.
Fat_Tony
Registered
While I dont disagree with you. I do have to comment you are going to have accidents in training, because we are human and make mistakes. Besides more pool time before checkout dives the simple fact is the instructor/student ratio is to great. If something goes wrong your buddy is in training also, by the time your instructor sees the problem it may be to late. That and I think people do the AOW much to soon.
Paul
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