Diver dies near Vashon Island

[Uncle Pug]

I don't know anything about the incident. I do however want to say that I appreciate the tone of the inquiry here and the respect SB posters have shown toward the deceased, his family & friends and especially toward other posters here on SB.

It is an item of passing interest to some but a very personal and therefore emotional incident to others.

Thanks for respecting one another.

 

[wolf eel]

[lostinspace no, and no-one has said they are certain
no, and no-one has said it is the only reflex yes, that's true.

what more do you want people to say?]

UM nothing at all. Unless it is either an informed answer or it is a valid point ! Or a true concern for others. I am not looking for anwsers to what happened in my family. The question may have been better directed like this. We seem to be having a trend towards heart attacks or is it because we have an aging diver community.? Heart attacks and drowning seem to be the event in every diver related death these days.

My point was to Rick I did responded to your statments as it seemed the reflex was the only straw to hold onto. Direct answers that try to give a reason or explanation by one sentence only hinder the conversations. I have been beat up on many of these forums knowing full well that they are wrong. If you read Ricks comments it clearly say's NOT the case. Thats where I questioned the "only reflex"

Most of the response came back as a carotid reflex is the only response to restriction around the throat. That is my only point.

Cheers
Derek

 

[wolf eel]

[Snowbear Wolf Eel - sounds like you want the same answer about what caused the "heart failure" just like we want to know what really happened when the M.E. calls any water death "drowning."

Even with someone there to see the events unfold, and accurately tells what happened, we will likely never know what truly happened. Everything here is just speculation.]

You are so right. It is all speculation.

On deep dive accidents your BCD or suit is filled and you are gone like a bullet. That just stopped all actions of a M.E. to be able to determine what happened. I have never understood why this is the main stream practice to retrieve a deep diver corpse. It's allways he drowned or heart attack but why ??? The simple answers of ox tox hit and so on only explain partial drowning but the body would give more clues but it has been saturated so badly on the rise you can't tell the difference any more. I have offten wondered if gas built up in the stomach could cause the heart to have a problem. If the person had no other signs of damage to his body then what would be the cause ?? IE: no idegestion, pryer heart pain. Excellent physical and so on.

Cheers
Derek

 

[Snowbear]

You are so right. It is all speculation.

On deep dive accidents your BCD or suit is filled and you are gone like a bullet. That just stopped all actions of a M.E. to be able to determine what happened. I have never understood why this is the main stream practice to retrieve a deep diver corpse. It's allways he drowned or heart attack but why ??? The simple answers of ox tox hit and so on only explain partial drowning but the body would give more clues but it has been saturated so badly on the rise you can't tell the difference any more. I have offten wondered if gas built up in the stomach could cause the heart to have a problem. If the person had no other signs of damage to his body then what would be the cause ?? IE: no idegestion, pryer heart pain. Excellent physical and so on.

Cheers
Derek

Even if the body was not damaged by the retrieval, it may still be impossible for a mere human to find the physiological event or events that lead to the drowning and subsequent heart failure (or perhaps the heart failure that lead to the drowning?) The M.E. can look for clues in the tissues, but without knowing about or knowing to look for other clues that tie the story together, a definitive answer may NOT be available. For example - while there may be physiological changes brought on by panic, baseline "normal" for that person will most likely not be available, so if the underlying cause of the series of events leading to a death was narcosis induced panic (for example), how is the M.E. to find that? If it was a sudden death due to a failed heart, how is the M.E. to know what lead to the heart stopping? After all - it could have been lack of O2 to the tissues secondary to drowning that eventually caused the heart to fail.

Sometimes it is our time to die. If we happen to be under the water at the time, it will be deemed a diving related death. If we are driving on a freeway and the death results in a collision - more often than not it will be deemed a traffic accident death.

 

[wolf eel]

[Snowbear
Sometimes it is our time to die. If we happen to be under the water at the time, it will be deemed a diving related death. If we are driving on a freeway and the death results in a collision - more often than not it will be deemed a traffic accident death.]

I agree. I feel bad for ever making a comment about this. It has allways been a question for many years as to why we seem to have loads of divers dieing of heart failure ? This was a question that came about just pryer to this thread was the restriction of the throat. And that is why I posted to this at all. Other then to say how I felt towards the familys lose.

Cheers
Derek

 

[pt40fathoms]

I agree. I feel bad for ever making a comment about this. It has allways been a question for many years as to why we seem to have loads of divers dieing of heart failure ? This was a question that came about just pryer to this thread was the restriction of the throat. And that is why I posted to this at all. Other then to say how I felt towards the familys lose.

Cheers
Derek

Demographics.

Diving is a recreational activity that requires both money and time. People who are at or near the age when heart failure may be more common (over 40), are more likely to be able to afford both the time and money this activity can demand. This simply put, means that divers will, by virtue of the age in which they get involved in diving, be more prone to having heart attacks.

It sucks, but just when you can afford to do the things you always wanted to do. Your body may not be in the top shape it was 15 or 20 years earlier, and it may not be very forgiving.

This is a very sad time for the family, and my thoughs and prayers go out to them tonight.

 

[lostinspace]

We seem to be having a trend towards heart attacks or is it because we have an aging diver community.? Heart attacks and drowning seem to be the event in every diver related death these days.

I agree with comments about age and affordability.
I would also suggest that with the odd rare sad exception diving is becoming a safer sport, so the statistics sometimes come up showing that the "unpreventable" deaths (old age, obesity, disease) are more common.

 

[Squalus]

I am not a doctor but my understanding is a heart attack is caused my a disruption of blood flow to a portion of the heart causing tissue damage. It seems unlikely a cortid sinus reflex or, more importantly latex seals have anything to do with it.

I concur with your thought, diving is a very strenous at times for those who do not exercise routinely or not have done anything physical in awhile. Being overweight does have a factor in having a cardiac arrest. I do not think that the latex seal would have any plausible effect in this case.

 

[SoScuba]

It seems to me that nobody has enough information here to make an assumption as to whether the Carotid Sinus Reflex played a role in this incident or any other incident. I think the wisest statement so far has come from the doctor that stated there can be so many different things going on that it may be difficult to lay blame on one particular reflex. As divers, we put ourselves into an environment which is unnatural for the normal function of our bodies systems. The Carotid Sinus Reflex is a safety/ regulating mechanism that works in a certain way when we are in our natural environment. This reflex is designed to work from the inside of our bodies. ie. blood pressure, and regulate the heart accordingly. Now as a diver with a dry suit, you are putting yourself in an unnatural environment, which is already affecting the bodies "systems" and how they work, now add a tight neck seal and you are forcing what is supposed to be a sefety mechanism into acting in a way that is detrimental to a diver. The normal function of the Carotid Sinus Reflex is no longer valid. We can say that "normally" the mechanism works in such a way as to slow the heart rate and not in a way that would cause a heart attack. The point is that when we are in an unnatural environment these "normal" mechanisms no longer function normally. So...take a few of these normal bodily functions and take them into an environment where they no longer act "normal" and have them possibly interract unnaturally together and maybe throw in a minor health problem and or a minor mistake by the diver and there you have a whole mess of systems that aren't working normally. Now go ask a doctor what happened! Without further research and knowledge into what happens to our bodies in this unnatural environment we will not know for sure what happens in many diving incidents. Our decompression models are still based on theory. We know more than we did 100 years ago but we are still "ginea pigs" to a large extent under the water. There just isn't enough information to be able to know what happened in every dive incident.

Sean