Diving without Certification (A RANT)

[tomfcrist]

I agree- however nothing about a 'tech diver' with 250+ dives tells me that he was capable. But such is the disadvantages of replying from halfway around the world on an internet forum.

And we will never know based upon the fact that we dont know this particular diver, but it is possible that he is plenty capable, and also possible that he is completely incapable. But jumping on the "Im an Instructor, so I have to be a closed minded Robot" bandwagon is something i refuse to do. If i did, the first 50% of my dives would be a true hypocracy to that mindset. My grandfather was NOT an instructor, but he did a pretty damn good job teaching me.

 

[supergaijin]

And we will never know based upon the fact that we dont know this particular diver, but it is possible that he is plenty capable, and also possible that he is completely incapable. But jumping on the "Im an Instructor, so I have to be a closed minded Robot" bandwagon is something i refuse to do. If i did, the first 50% of my dives would be a true hypocracy to that mindset.

I think we're talking about 2 different things:
1. An experienced diver taking someone diving.
2. A not so experienced diver taking someone diving.
Me, I'm talking about number 2 in this thread- I have been all along.

My grandfather was NOT an instructor, but he did a pretty damn good job teaching me.

Your grandfather I'm sure had a bit more motivation in keeping you safe than some bloke you work with at the office.

 

[tomfcrist]

I think we're talking about 2 different things:
1. An experienced diver taking someone diving.
2. A not so experienced diver taking someone diving.
Me, I'm talking about number 2 in this thread- I have been all along.



Your grandfather I'm sure had a bit more motivation in keeping you safe than some bloke you work with at the office.

Are you implying that a tech diver with 250 dives in inexperianced? How about an Instructor with 150 dives?

 

[Thalassamania]

Bob, you may want to rethink that statement.......

Are you implying that I'm not a good instructor? Do you realize that there is no rule stating that people MUST get certifieda, and only an informal agreement between folks in the dive industry to only allow Certified divers to dive on thier boats?

If you honestly think that a man with 2000+ dives is incapable of presenting safe training(even though they are not formal instructors), you have issues.

The real problem with formal instruction these days is the notion that Instructors are EXPERTS or OFFICIALS in the industry. Based on my experiance, some of the best divers I have ever met are uncertified divers that have a few thousand dives more than the local instructor.

Yes, as instructors we should hold ourselves to a high standard, however if you read some of the threads on this boar4d you will see that there are plenty of "Experts" and instructors that arent worth thier weight in salt. Do you believe that it is better for a diver to get thier training from these instructors, or to learn from a very experianced diver who may or may not be an official instructor?

What Nobody on here will condone is a newbie diver "Teaching" another person how to dive......;..For obvious reasons.

I do not think that anyone is implying that you are not a good instructor, but there is an unexpressed undercurrent here that argues that simple possession of a diving instructor card is no longer prima facia evidence of competence as a diving instructor or even as a diver. There are even those who would suggest that, perhaps, it never was, and that mistrust goes to the root of this discussion.

 

[tomfcrist]

I do not think that anyone is implying that you are not a good instructor, but there is an unexpressed undercurrent here that argues that simple possession of a diving instructor card is no longer prima facia evidence of competence as a diving instructor or even as a diver. There are even those who would suggest that, perhaps, it never was, and that mistrust goes to the root of this discussion.

While it is obvious that some instructors suck, i would say that the root of this discussion is that people dont seem to think that a non instructor could possibly provide adequate instruction. No doubt i would like all new divers to take part in a class, preferably mine so that i can reap the benefits of such......but thats not why i teach. Most of the instructors that are not willing to admit that some non-instructor rated people are more competent than they are, feel threatened by a non instructor teaching someone how to dive. Either financially threatened, or egotistically threatened.
Mind you that non instructor rated person with exceptional competence is very rarely seen, but its not impossible to believe that they exsist. Why wont other instructors on here agree with this? Because they are afraid of the theoretical scuba police.

Even the certifying agencies realize that these non certified divers exsist.......the reason that agencies like NAUI have a Experianced Scuba Diver Program..........what does completion of this program give you?????? An Open Water Scuba Diver Card.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I agree with you. It is not OK to endanger anyones life, and that applies to us instructors as well.

Humor me here.....

My ITC was very comprhensive as im sure yours was as well. However, the only thing i "Learned" from my ITC was paperwork and liability. The skills I posessed were already demonstration quality, and the other portions of the course were a breeze for me. Does that mean that if prior to completing my ITC i performed a DSD with a friend that I would have been putting that person in any more danger than i would be today? Heck no. What it would have done is put everything I own on the line if an incident occured, and I got sued. Not worth the risk to me. But to some others, it very well may be.

All im trying to say is that a non instructor rated individual CAN be capable of providing adequate instruction.

I had about 900 dives when I became an instructor ... and had spent nearly a year and a half as a DM working with multiple instructors prior to that. I also had, by then, taken AN/DP ... so that would also qualify me as a "tech diver". And although I had all that background, I almost failed my IE ... because one of my evaluators felt I was not positioning myself properly during the demonstrations to be in control of my students. She then demonstrated that point by simulating a panic and getting away from me quicker than I thought was possible.

Nothing in a "tech diver's" training will teach them how to position themself to intervene in this situation.

So the tech diver ... even the well-trained, very experienced one ... takes a complete newb on a 30-foot tour at an easy dive site. Simplicity itself, right? But somewhere along the way, the diver accidentally floods his mask ... or aspirates a bit of water ... or suddenly gets that familiar "I can't get enough air" that comes from exertion and CO2 buildup ... and succumbs to an overpowering urge to head for the safety of the surface ... leaving his very experienced dive buddy suddenly looking up and well past the point of being physically able to do anything to prevent it.

They talked about "never hold your breath" prior to the dive ... but in a moment of near panic, said newb doesn't remember that part ... does what instinct tells him to do ... and blows his lungs out on the way to the surface.

If you think this doesn't happen, you haven't spent enough time reading the Incidents and Accidents forum. It happens ... even to instructors, if they're not careful.

We don't train for when dives go right ... we train for when they go wrong. And if your training doesn't include student management, you're trusting that nothing will ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added ----------

Are you implying that a tech diver with 250 dives in inexperianced? How about an Instructor with 150 dives?

... I haven't yet met one of those that I would trust training someone I loved ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tomfcrist]

I had about 900 dives when I became an instructor ... and had spent nearly a year and a half as a DM working with multiple instructors prior to that. I also had, by then, taken AN/DP ... so that would also qualify me as a "tech diver". And although I had all that background, I almost failed my IE ... because one of my evaluators felt I was not positioning myself properly during the demonstrations to be in control of my students. She then demonstrated that point by simulating a panic and getting away from me quicker than I thought was possible.

Nothing in a "tech diver's" training will teach them how to position themself to intervene in this situation.

So the tech diver ... even the well-trained, very experienced one ... takes a complete newb on a 30-foot tour at an easy dive site. Simplicity itself, right? But somewhere along the way, the diver accidentally floods his mask ... or aspirates a bit of water ... or suddenly gets that familiar "I can't get enough air" that comes from exertion and CO2 buildup ... and succumbs to an overpowering urge to head for the safety of the surface ... leaving his very experienced dive buddy suddenly looking up and well past the point of being physically able to do anything to prevent it.

They talked about "never hold your breath" prior to the dive ... but in a moment of near panic, said newb doesn't remember that part ... does what instinct tells him to do ... and blows his lungs out on the way to the surface.

If you think this doesn't happen, you haven't spent enough time reading the Incidents and Accidents forum. It happens ... even to instructors, if they're not careful.

We don't train for when dives go right ... we train for when they go wrong. And if your training doesn't include student management, you're trusting that nothing will ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added ----------

... I haven't yet met one of those that I would trust training someone I loved ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, your points are valid in the fact that accidents can happen, regardless of if the Instructor is rated as such or not. Quite frankly, if diving in south florida you will deal with enough paniked divers in your first 100 boat dives to know what to do...it wont be new to you.

As far as being too far awy from students in your IE, its a common hit. dont beat yourself up too bad...lol

As for never meeting one person in the 0-250 dive range that i would trust to teach my family....i agree, but i would just assume teach them myself anyway.

 

[timthefish]

Diving without a cert card is not illegal, simple as that really. In life as adults we assess the risk to ourselves constantly, as adults it is our decision whether or not we do something. John Doe says he wants to go try diving , he has assessed the risk albeit moderately ill informed, the Tect diver has assessed the risk to himself and John Doe and deems it OK. One would hope that there was some knowledge imparted to John Doe from Mr Techie or there is some moral issues and some lack of risk asessment ability.
My wife wanted to go diving without a Ccard and I accepted, as she'd probably go without me if she decided so. I took her to the pool and showed her mask clearance and fin pivots etc etc. We then went for a dive in the sea and did the same. We then dived quite a few times before she got her Ccard. At any point if either of us felt we weren't happy we canned the dive, we still operate this no questions asked out of the water, no delay just out.

 

[JTH2711]

Oh Man...This was really not what I wanted this to devolve into. You want details, here you go. 1) Both guys are under the age of 30. 2) This was a shore dive in the Florida Gulf off of Destin with High Wind. 3) The dive had no plan. "Here's your tank, here's your reg, here's your BC, keep breathing don't die". 4) That's all he would give me because he pissed me off with this stunt. I was not there, I found out about this on Facebook and called him about it. Beyond that I don't think you really need anymore details. This was a dumb idea, plain and simple.

 

[ktomlinson]

Oh so you actually didn't have a question.