DM blew me off

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Wouldn't it be great if you could predict the student who's going to panic on you? the dive buddy who's going to take off on their own, or do what this DM did to brnt999? It's possible to predict with uncanny accuracy. That's what I was getting around to stating while leading to the conclusion.
 
The point all the senior divers are trying to make is each diver is responsible for their own safety - regardless of what the DM told you. The dive starts and ends with safety in mind.

Credit to one of the earlier posters for raising this, despite the assertions of the thread starter (TS), the DM should perhaps have discussed the low on air situation with the group of divers involved and come up with an adjusted dive plan for Dive 2++. This could be as simple as "signal the DM & your dive buddy, go shallow - 5m, if you need to surface - do it with with your dive buddy but remember to signal the DM". If the DM did not discuss this as part of dive planning, then certainly the diver involved should have. Yes, you - TS: Remember always you're responsible for your own safety. Accident prevention occurs before, during and after an incident. Hope the dive professionals among this Board will also consider this when conducting dive briefings.

Second, TS should not presume to critique the DM, I'm concerned at the sense of injustice you are sharing on this board "DM blew me off".
When I was a noob diver myself, I was very concerned how my own DM responded when I signalled her I was low on air (50bar). Similar reaction that TS described. Years and hundreds of dives later, when I lead my own divers now - I realize she didn't do anything wrong. All her actions were passive. She continued to lead me at 5m. She was headed back towards the boat. She didn't surface based on her judgement I still had sufficient air, that swimming on the surface to the boat would be more difficult than subsurface. And before any readers jump in to say the boat could have picked us up, please consider how difficult it is sometimes for the boat to spot divers in the water. With the wrong conditions, chop, wind, distractions in picking up other divers, it's easy to lose sight of divers on the water surface waiting for pick up. My DM made a judgement call then, something I do on every dive with divers I lead. TS had a chance to discuss this incident directly with the DM, he didn't - so let's not presume guilt here. Nonetheless, still a good sharing for all divers to learn from. Your safety is your own responsibility.

It's not uncommon with new divers - myself included - to have immovable expectations of what a dive guide should do. This is not always accurate, but does provide an opportunity to learn should the mind be open to it.
 
TS (OP) had a chance to discuss this incident directly with the DM, he didn't - so let's not presume guilt here. Nonetheless, still a good sharing for all divers to learn from. Your safety is your own responsibility. ... It's not uncommon with new divers - myself included - to have immovable expectations of what a dive guide should do. This is not always accurate, but does provide an opportunity to learn should the mind be open to it.

You are right, theoretically. OP doesn't deny that. What he is pointing out, is that the same dive shop he was diving with, also certified him few days earlier - and did not teach him these truths. How to behave in such situations should not be learned from a good sharing with other divers on Scuba Board but taught during the OW course.

Working in education, I know very well what state accreditation means. An accredited school must fulfil certain quality standards regarding the teaching staff and course content. Otherwise it has no right to issue diplomas recognized by other schools or by employers. Accredited schools are monitored and must prove their quality on a regular basis. If they fail, they loose their licence. If students fail to fulfil these stadards they do not get the diploma. IMHO, certifying agencies should have a similar approach. They should monitor the shops they have authorised to issue their c-cards. Typical situations and questions like the discussed one should be included in the standard of an OW course. Apparently it is not, if neither the OP, nor myself had them covered in our OW courses.

Some senior divers sound like saying, that all newbies should somehow naturally know what they must know before boarding a dive boat, even if they were not taught; and that they also should be able to tell a good course from a bad one. Isn't this an equally unfounded, unrealistic expectation as to expect a DM to be your nurse? Normally, people even don't know what they don't know...
 
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The point all the senior divers are trying to make is each diver is responsible for their own safety - regardless of what the DM told you. The dive starts and ends with safety in mind.

Credit to one of the earlier posters for raising this, despite the assertions of the thread starter (TS), the DM should perhaps have discussed the low on air situation with the group of divers involved and come up with an adjusted dive plan for Dive 2++. This could be as simple as "signal the DM & your dive buddy, go shallow - 5m, if you need to surface - do it with with your dive buddy but remember to signal the DM". If the DM did not discuss this as part of dive planning, then certainly the diver involved should have. Yes, you - TS: Remember always you're responsible for your own safety. Accident prevention occurs before, during and after an incident. Hope the dive professionals among this Board will also consider this when conducting dive briefings.

Second, TS should not presume to critique the DM, I'm concerned at the sense of injustice you are sharing on this board "DM blew me off".
When I was a noob diver myself, I was very concerned how my own DM responded when I signalled her I was low on air (50bar). Similar reaction that TS described. Years and hundreds of dives later, when I lead my own divers now - I realize she didn't do anything wrong. All her actions were passive. She continued to lead me at 5m. She was headed back towards the boat. She didn't surface based on her judgement I still had sufficient air, that swimming on the surface to the boat would be more difficult than subsurface. And before any readers jump in to say the boat could have picked us up, please consider how difficult it is sometimes for the boat to spot divers in the water. With the wrong conditions, chop, wind, distractions in picking up other divers, it's easy to lose sight of divers on the water surface waiting for pick up. My DM made a judgement call then, something I do on every dive with divers I lead. TS had a chance to discuss this incident directly with the DM, he didn't - so let's not presume guilt here. Nonetheless, still a good sharing for all divers to learn from. Your safety is your own responsibility.

It's not uncommon with new divers - myself included - to have immovable expectations of what a dive guide should do. This is not always accurate, but does provide an opportunity to learn should the mind be open to it.

Look, I have learned from this post. I get it-I understand what people are telling me. Divers need a mindset of having their eyes wide open. They need to be fully aware of the dive, the dangers of the dive, their limitations, what can go wrong, what their plan is if something goes wrong. They need to be totally independant and responsible for their own life. I admit--I was passive and dependant on this first dive ( and others after it) and I expected to be told what to do. I did put my life in the hands of this DM. I had a passive and dependant mindset.

Along my way I have met many professional, responsible, excellent DM's.The vast majority of them are.

But I know how to read the situation that happened to me on my first dive. I am not a spring chicken--I have been around and can read people's character. I spent a full day on the dive boat with this DM and talked to him before and after the dives. I saw him interact with myself and other divers on the boat. He had a friend visiting him from another country. This friend was a braggart who went on about how he was diving all his life and he often dove alone and it was beneath him to be on one of these dive charters. He was a braggart. On the first dive this guy didn't surface with us but went off on his own and he ended up surfacing with another group. Later the DM chided his friend for this and told him to stay with the group. On the second dive as we were standing in line waiting to enter the water this guys tank slipped out of his BCD and he had a panicked frightened look as the boat crew helped him. English wasn't their first language, but as we all surfaced on the second dive (when I was low on air) the DM said said something to his friend, and the friend replied in a shocked and suprised tone. The DM knew the situation was a little out of control.

I was wrong to have the mindset I had, but that doesn't change the reality of the fact that this DM ignored me when I signalled I was low because he was self centered and he didn't want to end his dive early.He wanted to show off to his friend. Some of you guys will circle around and protect your own and get defensive and refuse to acknowlege that some DM's don't have good character. They shouldn't be in the business. Thats why no diver should be dependant on any DM. There are bad apples in any group--is it so hard to accept the fact their are poor diving professionals.
 
Safety is a prime concern of course; but that does not mean there are not other concerns, concerns that might also entail obligations either before or during a dive.

If I am near my home diving with a friend with no DM or guide then we take proper precautions and call the dive and go home if there is a problem or even if one of us for some reason used up a tonne of air. We don't make a big deal of it. We are good friends and did not take too much effort or time to go for a fun dive or two on a Sunday afternoon.

But when I have paid 1000s of dollars to fly half-way around the world to dive for my hard earned vacation I do not want some random air hog cutting my dive time in half on every dive when I am paying for space and time on a boat as well.

The cost per hour underwater is already high enough; and factoring in opportunity costs for vacation diving makes it even higher. In some places dive times are arbitrarily restricted to 60 minutes even if NDC limits are far away and gas supplies are stocked. Hence, I think the onus or burden should be borne by the air hog: he should inform people before going in the water about his air consumption rate and discuss the protocol and not expect a whole group to end several dives earlier than they would have. He should try to find another air-hog to buddy with or get a private DM. And the burden is greater the greater the air-hoggedness of the air-hog. Five minutes is not so bad, 10, I can empathize with. But if someone is cutting 20 or 30 minutes of time off my dive I don't want to have that person diving with me.

Of course, I did not see any report about the bottom times involved in the original post; and the devil is in the details. But here is an example of a situation where I was not very happy:

When I did my advanced open water there was another student who was my buddy. Dive times with him were always about 30 minutes, even when shallow. We barely had enough time to get through the skill drills. Turns out he had just finished his OW course and had no dives other than the OW dives. He would surface with his 500 psi and I would be at 1200, or 1500-2000. When I took my OW years ago my LDS required 50 dives before one could take the AOW (though that seems to have changed). So, my time underwater was half of what it could have been during that course, but the price was still the same. Needless to say I did not dive with or take courses with this DS again. I now look only for places with private instructors.

My log book tells the tale: AOW: dive 1, 26 min; dive 2, 30 min, 3, 36 min, 4, 32 min, 5, 32 min. Next three dives for fun without this 'buddy': 1, 60 min, 2, 58 min, 3rd, 54min - and we came up only because this is the stipulated maximum that cares not for NDL or gas. This was in an area of Thailand where 60 min dive time is the max. I could have had 5 hours underwater on the AOW course; whereas I only had 2.5. This is not a trivial amount of time lost! A standard three dive boat trip for a day of diving is three hours arbitrary max bottom time. "3 Dives - King Cruiser Wreck / Shark Point / Koh Doc Mai 3,800 Baht," so the dive shop's website says. That's about 130 Canadian dollars. So, this 'buddy' cost me a day of diving - that's also worth 5 nights of hotel costs for the hotel I was staying at.

I completed a rescue and navigation course with my own instructor - all the dives ended up in the 50 min plus range; one was even 86 minutes (for we dove a beach, not a boat). We had time for our skill drills - even time to repeat some for mastery's sake, and time for floating around looking at weird things.

I imagine that dives shops that have DMs and set up dive charters get complaints about this all the time - how one diver in a group of 4 or 5 insta-buddies doubled the cost per hour for every other diver; indeed I would need 10 dives to get the same amount of time diving with my AOW buddy as I would for 5 by myself. From a Phuket Dive shop: "Dives - Racha Yai 3,100 Baht 3 Dives - King Cruiser Wreck / Shark Point / Koh Doc Mai 3,800 Baht" So 106.908 $ for a two day trip plus the 130 for the three day trip; that's 236 dollars additional dive costs plus two more days of hotels and meals.

After my OW course's training dives I never dove again with either a DM or an instructor for many years. So, my buddies and I had to take care of ourselves. When I go on a boat with a DM it is their experience of the layout of the dive site that I value - makes navigation easier if someone knows the layout. But I still draw a map of the site on my slate and study my compass headings when I am swimming around. Sometimes I would rather just dive a spot on my own without the DM. I don't view the DM as my caretaker or babysitter or an excuse to not practice skills or maintain an awareness of what's going on. I monitor air closely and make a conscious effort to use as little as I can for I want to stay down as long as possible.

It is, therefore, not just the economy of air that is at stake; and I can see why people would get curt with a chronic air waster or a novice who should really be getting some more experience or instruction or paying for a private guide so that he does not greatly affect the quality of other divers' dives.

Just how much time is one willing to shave off a dive before it is time for a new buddy or to have someone get their own DM?

MT
 
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Could I ask a favor, that you guys go back to the standard convention of using OP for the person who started the thread? Every time my eye sees TS, I jump . . .
 
Man, I thought the rules for this sub-forum said something like "This forum is intended to be a "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may share their incident without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times.". Well, apparently I've misunderstood something.

Thats's a question, how someone coming, let's say, to a PADI ***** Dive Club could possibly know, that the course there is shoddy and fast-track? One needs knowledge to make such a judgement. Otherwise he/she would trust the brand (reputable agency, licensed club / instructor / divemaster, etc.)

Some senior divers sound like saying, that all newbies should somehow naturally know what they must know before boarding a dive boat, even if they were not taught; and that they also should be able to tell a good course from a bad one. Isn't this an equally unfounded, unrealistic expectation as to expect a DM to be your nurse? Normally, people even don't know what they don't know...

Since this already has been said, I don't need to repeat it. But I'll QFT it anyway.

When I certified last summer, I had two agencies to choose from. After some research on curriculum content and time spent for a cert, I chose one of those. It was not a large international commercial agency. Unfortunately, the LDS offering certifications from my agency of choice didn't get enough students to run the course without loss, so it was canceled and I ended up at the other LDS, which is affiliated with, eh, a large international commercial agency. The OW course took a little more than a week. We had four evenings of theory "teaching", basically watching the videos and answering the quizzes. Having attended university, I'm comfortable with being left to my own reading and repetition discipline to learn a subject, however I'm far from convinced that the average person can learn stuff well enough that way. I can't say that the OW dives were inadequate, but the amount of time spent in the water could definitely have been longer.

Now, due to national regulations, we didn't have 4 OW dives. We had 6, the last two done as independent dives with no instructor telling us what to do. We planned the dives and dived the plan after discussing the plan with the instructor. To me, those two dives made a huge difference. It was only after those I really understood, on a gut level, that I and I alone am responsible for my own safety. And because of that experience, I can sympathize with the OP. Unless s/he has been told explicitly and repeatedly just that, and even been forced to experience that on a practical level, how the heck is s/he supposed to know that? You don't know what you haven't learned. And far from everyone is able to just absorb that kind of knowledge by some mystical osmosis thing without being taught it.

My first post-cert dive was totally independent. I was apprehensive as h*ll, but I had a cert claiming I was able to dive independently, and by Jove, that was what I was going to be, also since the culture among divers around here seems to be very similar to the culture in the PNW US. But again, if the general culture where you live and/or get certified isn't like that, how can a n00b be expected to realize what a bunch of posters have been saying here, in ways that I would have felt quite uncomfortable if I were the OP.

In retrospect, if I had known what I know now, I would rather have waited until whenever the "other" LDS was running a month-long * course than jumping on the week-and-a-half OW course I ended up taking. Even if it could have given me some minor problems having my C-card recognized in some parts of the world. But things being as they are, I've got my plastic, I have learned that I'm supposed to be wholly responsible for my own safety and I'm working continually on my skills to be able to do that. But neither the agency nor the LDS can claim a gram of credit for that mindset.

And I still think that the piling on the OP in this thread is at least bending the rules for this sub-forum.
 
I like that system of two non-supervised dives before certification. Even if the instructor goes on the dives, the student buddy team plans the dive and leads the dive while the instructor just watches from a distance.
 
I like that system of two non-supervised dives before certification. Even if the instructor goes on the dives, the student buddy team plans the dive and leads the dive while the instructor just watches from a distance.

Yeah I think that's a great idea. Wonder why it's not done by major agencies?
 

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