Do you dive Side-Mount or Side Slung??

[MSargeant]

My 2p... When i started diving sidemount, i strongly considered bungie-ing a long hose to my left cylinders (I dive short hose left, long hose right) for peace of mind. However after diving and getting comfortable i don't see the need for it.

My long hose is 7ft in length, always wanted to do overhead but i see the practical use of a long hose in open water. On a single BM set i disliked not being able to have my personal space after donating an alternate air source, with the long hose, i can deploy the AAS, control the situation, then back off whilst still within a close reach of the individual if needs be.

Anyone i dive with (University club, usually people staring and wondering why my tanks are on my sides) knows that the reg they are going to get in an emergency is the one with a bolt snap attached to the hose. I know which reg i'm breathing from 99% of the time, any other time i just look down and if there is a bolt snap sticking up, its the long hose, if not, then the long hose is sitting to the right of my chin.

I can see the pros of having double long hose... However i don't have any need for it with the way i dive, to each their own.

 

[DaleC]

Too much is made of this muscle memory business IMO. I dive five different styles of rig (in a hose routing sense):
Hog
Double hose with or without LP whips
Single "Padi" style with or without pony
BM independent doubles
Sidemount

Ones responses should be systematic based on being able to assess what is happening and what could be causing it. Not some automatic reflex. I've posted this video before but here it is again as it shows a shutdown and reg swap. No particular muscle memory involved and I'm continuing to video with the other hand as it happens.
That should be the goal of tech training; not memorizing one response to one rig.

[video=youtube;BKKpuHxGENY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKpuHxGENY&list=UU5zvhnU0XYpf_cadpYJYkhQ& index=11[/video]

 

[DevonDiver]

Ones responses should be systematic based on being able to assess what is happening and what could be causing it. Not some automatic reflex.

On this we disagree.

There's a bunch of factors; not least stress, panic, task-loading, narcosis, hypoxia, hyperoxia, that indicate emergency response is better if simple, pre-drilled and not reliant upon problem solving.

I believe there are also numerous studies and theories indicating a tangible link between problem solving, the number of potential resolutions... and the speed of effective response.

Military training, amongst other disciplines characteristic of a need for 'high-stress, quick necessary response', make great use of instinctive training. Not at the expense of developing problem solving and initiative in general, but as the ultimate solution for providing high-likelihood of success resolutions in time-critical, life-threatening and easily foreseeable​ scenarios.

We have drills for the predictable. Problem solving is reserved for when the drill doesn't work.

 

[DaleC]

But the problem with muscle memory as it is often portrayed in diving is that the secondary problem solving isn't taught; only reliance on a singular configuration. If you always configure the same way how do you learn to assess variation? The point being you are already talking about simply swapping long hose sides as confusing the potential tech diver. That shouldn't happen. If it does the tech diver should reassess their abilities; especially considering the confusion that will occur when adding multiple deco/stage bottles.

Being able to trace a hose back to source should be the action captured by "muscle memory" not the exact placement of a particular hose.

 

[Colliam7]

I dive long hose on the left, bungee B/U on the right and I fail to see how it is different, donation wise, from long hose on the right. You just have to think it through...If there is bubbling it is actually easier to assess long hose left. In that case only one hose goes behind the head, the short hose travels straight up from the right tank. In long hose right, both hoses share common ground where they route behind the neck.

OK, Dale - so the 'WHY' for you is a slightly easier approach to assessing bubbling? I am not by any means challenging, criticizing or disagreeing with this approach. I was just curious WHY? And, it sounds like this is the benefit for you. Thank you.

The only real difference is that, in long hose right, the bungee'd reg routes behind the neck ala BM Hog fashion. How that effects longhose donation is beyond me because, functionally, both regs are bungee'd beneath the chin.

So, with your rig, you do NOT route the bungeed / right side hose behind the head, as you would in the 'traditional' BM left side bungeed necklace? Again, just asking for purposes of clarification. I guess the next question would then be, if you don't route the bungeed necklace hose behind the head when you dive it on the right, could you not simply do the same thing on the left?

---------- Post added February 26th, 2013 at 05:53 PM ----------

I don't see much value in a second long hose. If gas management is done correctly, you have an adequate supply of gas to donate...and a long-hose to donate it with.

I am right there with you. The important caveat, of course - IF gas management is done correctly.

I was only discussing the Tec Sidemount course. I think the rec/basic sidemount course doesn't need those standards - two long hoses, two short hoses, one long-one short... it doesn't really matter. Whilst I like that the basic sidemount does provide recreational divers with exposure to the long hose, I don't think it is a necessit. unless overhead environment or technical diving.

Interesting. I actually favor doing the same thing in tec and recreational sidemount for the very reason you mentioned previously - consistency.

Karl H will share stories of PADI tech/sidemount instructors he's seen teaching students to 'double-wrap' (fully encircle) the neck with long hoses etc. The muppets are out there...and standards are the only thing standing between them and complete licensed lunacy...

Funny (I now have this indelible image in my head of Kermit the Frog in a sidemount rig). And, scary - the 'double wrap' part.

I firmly believe that dive manufacturers take steps to distinguish their products on the market. Those steps are sometimes "artificial". Case to point "open-water sidemount bcds". Left-hand long hose... same, same, but different.

OK, that's a very fair assessment. I definitely agree that some manufacturers take steps, to distinguish products, that are somewhat artificial (I am not sure that having my wing able to withstand a gunshot is necessary, as one example). But, I wasn't thinking along that line when I watched Lamar's video. Could be you are right, though.

 

[DevonDiver]

I actually favor doing the same thing in tec and recreational sidemount for the very reason you mentioned previously - consistency.

I also think consistency is necessary - but with recreational sidemount, there shouldn't be an assumption that divers will necessarily progress into overhead environment and/or tech. Which means no consistency is needed, because they'd only be diving one way...their way.

From an instructional point-of-view, divers should be taught a consistent method...that remains applicable should they progress to overhead/tech. How they adapt/refine/amend that post-qualification is up to them. A good instructor should educate them on the reasons why long hose right/short hose left (hog) configuration is taught though... as this might shape their future adaptation/refinement/amendments depending on their goals.

 

[DaleC]

Hi Colliam, Response in bold

OK, Dale - so the 'WHY' for you is a slightly easier approach to assessing bubbling? I am not by any means challenging, criticizing or disagreeing with this approach. I was just curious WHY? And, it sounds like this is the benefit for you. Thank you.

I really don't worry that much about it as I could distinguish pretty quickly either way. But when I looked at routing in the traditional Hog fashion I kept asking myself " why am I wrapping this hose around my torso and behind my head and then wrapping the short hose around my head too?" I can achieve the same effect by simply routing the long hose behind my head and running the short hose straight up from the tank.
So, for me, I'd say it's K.I.S.S.

You really have to try donating both ways to see how there is no difference in the initial actions. The difference is just in where you pull the excess from.

I also like the way routing is more direct. I clip in the right tank and simply hang the short hose from my neck bungee. Done, no cross over - right side right - direct path from tank to neck. I then clip in the left and route the long hose behind my head and clip it off. Done, only one cross over - in all other regards left side left. In the Hog method one is crossing the body with the short hose (left to right) and then double crossing the body with the long hose (right to left, left to right) For what? All I see is a lot of hose swapping sides for no return.

There is a very good rationale that applies with BM doubles for long hose right, short hose behind the head, that has everything to do with practicality and function - but those same issues do not migrate with the hoses to SM. That's an important point that is being lost here. In order to preserve continuity, routing is being chosen that was never intentionally designed for the rig or put through the same sort of analysis that Hog BM was. If one wasn't trying to keep a standard configuration, would that routing be the one one would choose? For me - no. It violates too many KISS principles.

If there were a benefit to the Hog route I would admit it, I don't make any money off my choices; but the only one I can possibly think of is that, if dropped, the short hose would hang from the neck. However, the benefit of sm is that I can see both first stages and hoses and can easily identify and trace such a loss as with a deco or stage bottle.

So, with your rig, you do NOT route the bungeed / right side hose behind the head, as you would in the 'traditional' BM left side bungeed necklace? Again, just asking for purposes of clarification. I guess the next question would then be, if you don't route the bungeed necklace hose behind the head when you dive it on the right, could you not simply do the same thing on the left?

Ah, good question. Yes you could but I wouldn't. In that case the short hose could become a trap if you put it on after the long hose and possibly the inflator - lot's of traffic on the left that way. If you wanted to take off the left tank, you would need to unbungee it from your neck and under the long hose. One reason I like my config. is that it keeps everything separate. No traps.

Perhaps you are thinking of preserving the long hose right from the Hog configuration. I get that from a continuity POV but I really think, if you just try routing long hose right (even in the house) you will see how the donation isn't compromised. Primary in right hand, looped over head, offered to recipient, secondary put in mouth, excess hose withdrawn and offered. I think that is what should be preserved, not the exact method of hose routing.

 

[DevonDiver]

Dale, the issue (as I see it) with direct routing of the short hose is streamlining. I've not yet seen a diver...or photo of a diver... who directly routes the short hose, where that short hoses wasn't dangling below them entirely reliant on the necklace to stop it dropping totally.

'Conventional' routing of the sm short hose behind the neck serves a number of purposes - none of which are a thoughtless compliance with BM practices.

As I stated, I don't think it particularly matters how a diver configures for open-water diving. If diver's are content with 'bowed' hoses and dropped regulators...so be it. For confined/overhead, direct routing of the short hose is an unnecessary liability and safety hazard.

 

[DaleC]

Have you sent Brian the memo?

[video=youtube;6n5RMSLdwI8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5RMSLdwI8[/video]

I dunno, so far I haven't experienced a whole lot of problems with dropped hoses and i suspect it isn't that big a deal as many people carry deco/stage bottles without routing the hose behind the neck before use. Once in use, I would notice a reg dropping out of my mouth.
The excess hose, if there is any, is tucked between the diver and the right tank.

You say a number of purposes; name any other purpose for routing the short hose behind the neck other than the supposed dropped reg scenario.

 

[JamesK]

Have you sent Brian the memo?

[video=youtube;6n5RMSLdwI8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5RMSLdwI8[/video]

I dunno, so far I haven't experienced a whole lot of problems with dropped hoses and i suspect it isn't that big a deal as many people carry deco/stage bottles without routing the hose behind the neck before use. Once in use, I would notice a reg dropping out of my mouth.
The excess hose, if there is any, is tucked between the diver and the right tank.

You say a number of purposes; name any other purpose for routing the short hose behind the neck other than the supposed dropped reg scenario.

Yeah, I have seen that video before. I route everything just like Brian does, with the exception that I have added a long hose to the right side as well. Runs pretty much like his right tank does aside from the hose going down the tank further. No hoses go across my chest.