Do you Plan your dive or Dive your plan within NDLs?

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No, SAC rate is expressed in liters/cuft per minute. So SAC is a volume and has nothing to do with the size of the tank.

Edit: Sorry, but this is stuff that is supposed to be taught in an Open Water Diver Course.

I was also taught in PADI OW that SAC is expressed in pressure/minute, and RMV in volume/minute. Here are a couple of links that confirm that belief. I honestly thought the "SAC vs RMV" was like the "dived vs dove" argument. Both can be right or wrong depending on whom you are talking to.
http://www.alertdiver.com/?articleNo=259
http://www.ndc.noaa.gov/pdfs/AirRqmtFormulas.pdf
 
I was also taught in PADI OW that SAC is expressed in pressure/minute, and RMV in volume/minute. Here are a couple of links that confirm that belief. I honestly thought the "SAC vs RMV" was like the "dived vs dove" argument. Both can be right or wrong depending on whom you are talking to.
http://www.alertdiver.com/?articleNo=259
http://www.ndc.noaa.gov/pdfs/AirRqmtFormulas.pdf
Thanks for the links, that's interesting.
This way of putting it actually is new to me. It's still kind of weird though, since pressure/minute gives you a volume.
Usually you get a liter or cuft amount when you ask people for their SAC rate... maybe something really has changed or it's an American thing.
 
Better, more simple Scuba terminology is "Surface Consumption Rate" (SCR), and "Depth Consumption Rate" (DCR) --for either volumetric or pressure units. "Tank Rating" factor is TR.
 
What particular tank (or twinset) would that be? 10L? 12L? 15L? D7? D8.5? D12? Your 1 bar/min could be anything from 10 to 24 SLM (i.e. from mouse to hoover), depending on the tank/twinset size. I use 10L tanks, and I've never recorded a SAC as low as 10 SLM. And I log my SAC on every dive since my PDC is AI.
Storker have you ever traveled overseas for drift diving (i.e. no physical exertion at all going with the current) in tropical 28 deg C waters following along a long coral wall? You can easily attain a relaxed & low 8 to 11 liters/min per ATA volume Surface Consumption Rate (SCR).

Using the common AL80 that most overseas Dive-Ops provide for rental with a Tank Rating of 11 liters/bar will give you a 0.7 to 1 bar/min per ATA pressure SCR.
 
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Better, more simple Scuba terminology is "Surface Consumption Rate" (SCR), and "Depth Consumption Rate" (DCR) --for either volumetric or pressure units. "Tank Rating" factor is TR.
Maybe add a "u" word to complete a catchy acronym. Something like "Surface Consumption Rate Unit". Then we could get some entertainment out of the "Is it my SAC or SCRU?" posts.
 
As I said before, I rarely dive an 80. So, if I'm using a 100, it's around 1.4? Still not simple arithmetic, like the poster who keeps going on and about multiplying and dividing by 1 keeps saying. And when I'm on a 120, it's 1.2? Doubles? 0.7 or 0.6?

If you're just going to round everything to 1 or 2 or something like that, well, I can do the same thing with Imperial numbers. The point being that the yammering about how using metric lets you do all this multiplying and dividing by 1 is really kind of, well, just that useless yammering, and how easy that is doesn't really apply to most people (not even close) from what I can tell.
Am I doing something wrong? Doesn't 1 bar/min on an AL80 translate to an RMV of just less than 0.4 cu-ft/min?

Who does their gas planning based on an RMV that low?

I generally base mine on 0.7, which is 1.8bar/min (on an AL80), if I did the arithmetic correctly. Suddenly the arithmetic is not any easier than just sticking with Imperial. Especially since I almost never use an AL80 anyway.

Moreover, what is the point of giving such a detailed explanation for how easy it is to calculate when the whole thing is based on such a very specific assumption of RMV and tank size? Especially when the assumed RMV is so much lower than what it seems like most recreational divers actually consume.
Stuartv, so what can you not handle about working smarter in Metric with "1" or "2", or any two significant figure decimal number in between?

Here are some example pressure Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) values for a variety of common cylinders, given a arbitrary nominal volume SCR of 22 litres/min per ATA (roughly 0.78 cuft/min per ATA in US Imperial Units, a reasonable & achievable volume SCR for most novice divers):

11L/bar tank (AL80): 2bar/min per ATA;
12L/bar tank (Steel HP100): 1.8bar/min per ATA;
13L/bar tank (AL100): 1.7bar/min per ATA;
15L/bar tank (Steel HP119): 1.5bar/min per ATA;
16L/bar tank (Steel HP130): 1.4bar/min per ATA;
11L Twins (Double AL80's): 1bar/min per ATA;
12L Twins (Double HP100's): 0.9bar/min per ATA;
16L Twins (Double HP130's): 0.7bar/min per ATA.
My SAC is 27psi-min on an AL80. If I'm diving an AL80 and I'm at 100', I know I'm at 4ATA. 4 * 27 is easy enough. 108 psi/min. In 10 minutes, I'll drop 1080 psi on my SPG. Look at my SPG and see where I'll be in 10 minutes. Handy and easy - even in Imperial units.

I generally work in RMV (cu-ft/min), but SAC seems like it can be handy.
Less cumbersome and smarter in Metric:

Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) of 2 bar/min per ATA on an AL80;

30meters is 4ATA (30 divided-by 10 plus 1 is 4 ATA): 4 ATA times 2 bar/min per ATA equals 8bar/min Depth Consumption rate (DCR). In 10 minutes you'll use 80bar (8bar/min times 10 minutes is 80 bar).

80 bar consumed from a full tank of 200 bar, and you know the SPG will read 120 bar remaining.

Now which is the quicker much easier subtraction to see & figure: 200 minus 80 equals 120 bar?

Or: 3000 psi minus 1080 psi equals 1920 psi???

(In "handy" US Imperial units? How many ATA is 70 feet for example?? Let's see, 70' divided-by 33 plus 1 is 3.1 ATA versus 21 meters divided-by 10 plus 1 is 3.1 ATA --->Which evaluation to ATA was easier to see??!?)
 
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More Metric vs. US Imperial Units (Bar vs PSI)

Here's another more comprehensive example:

Modified Thirds Planning and Calculating On-the-Fly Gas Needed to Do a Lost Buddy Search in a Wreck Penetration:

Using difficult & cumbersome US Imperial Units in PSI (the easier Metric calculation in comparison follows later down below in bold):

Suppose you originally planned a wreck penetration starting with 3000 psi [double AL80’s] at the entrance, with an openwater Rock Bottom minimum gas reserve of 750psi. So 3000 minus 750 equals 2250psi usable for the penetration --Modified Thirds of this value is 750 psi (one-third of 2250 equals 750), so you would turn-around for egress when you consume 750 psi of gas with an actual SPG reading of 2250 psi. If you needed to do a gas-sharing emergency egress with your buddy at this point, you would together need 1500psi to get out of the wreck, with 750psi Rock Bottom remaining to get both of you to the surface (or your Oxygen deco bottle stop at 20').

Let’s say you used up 450psi already getting to the entrance of the wreck for a total of 2550 pressure available --can you quickly recalculate Modified-Thirds?

Well . . . 2550psi minus 750psi Rock Bottom yields 1800psi usable for the penentration; One-Third of 1800psi is 600psi which is your new Modified Thirds turn pressure value. Therefore you would turn the dive when you consume 600psi for an actual turn pressure SPG reading of 1950psi (2550 minus 600 equals the actual turn pressure SPG reading of 1950psi).

What if you lose your buddy at this instance, at the farthest distance inside the overhead your Modified Thirds value allows? How do you calculate the amount of gas to do a Lost Buddy Search?

NOT very easy! At your turn around pressure reading of 1950psi on the SPG, simply add your Rock Bottom value to your Modified Thirds value (750psi Rock Bottom plus 600psi Modified Thirds equals 1350psi); Put a line-arrow pointing the way out on your mainline that you've laid, and take reference note of where you are inside the overhead at that exact point as well. Now go and search for your buddy with the understanding that you must be back at this line-arrow marker by the time your SPG reads this actual value (1350psi). So you would have from 1950psi down to 1350psi reading on your SPG, or 600psi delta of gas to search for your buddy --if you were to do a straight line search down a long corridor inside the wreck for example, tactically you should use 300psi out and 300psi back to your line-arrow marker for a delta of 600psi, and an actual end of search SPG reading of 1350psi-- you must start your egress whether you found your buddy or not when you use up this 600psi delta of gas, at the line arrow marker, with the actual 1350psi final reading on your SPG.

At any point before your Modified Thirds turn pressure, for a lost buddy search, the final egress pressure is figured just by adding your Rock Bottom value to the amount of gas you've consumed on the penetration up to that point --for example you start with 2550psi on your SPG and you lose your buddy with 2100psi SPG reading for a delta consumption of 450psi. 750psi Rock Bottom plus delta consumption of 450psi equals 1200psi. Drop a line arrow, and now you've got from 2100psi down to 1200psi (a tactical delta search pressure of 900psi) to look for your buddy, and be back to your line arrow to egress smartly when your SPG reads 1200psi.

At any point after your Modified Thirds turn pressure, all you need to do to figure out a final egress pressure for a lost buddy search is to subtract your Modified Thirds value from your actual pressure reading, and place a line-arrow pointing out at this point on your mainline. For example, if you're egressing and you lose your buddy with 1800psi actual reading on your SPG: Subtract the Modified Thirds value of 600psi from 1800psi -which equals 1200psi - and it is this actual reading that you must have on your SPG when you get back to your line arrow to successfully exit the wreck with all your Rock Bottom still available to reach the surface. Another way of looking at this, at your nominal turn-around point & afterward on egress, the amount of gas tactically available for a lost buddy search is always just your Modified Thirds value --in this case 600psi.

Remember that on a lost buddy search, you will deliberately encroach and use up the Modified Thirds Reserve Value needed for an emergency gas-sharing egress contingency (and possibly use up Rock Bottom as well) --in other words, if you do find your lost buddy and worst of all worst scenarios he happens to be out-of-gas in a silt-out . . .well dea ex machina. I hope you're in a 3-person Team, somehow make it out and run into other divers on the outside who can donate gas & assist. . .
_______________
Same thing as above but now using Metric Units:

Modified Thirds,Turn-Around Pressure and Lost Buddy Search Gas Availability Calculations are easier & more intuitive with a bar SPG too. . .

Suppose you originally planned a wreck penetration starting with 200 bar at the entrance, with an openwater Rock Bottom minimum gas reserve of 50 bar. So 200 minus 50 bar equals 150 bar usable for the penetration --Modified Thirds of this value is 50 bar (one-third of 150 equals 50), so you would turn-around for egress when you consume 50 bar of gas with an actual SPG reading of 150 bar. If you needed to do a gas-sharing emergency egress with your buddy at this point, you would together need 100 bar to get out of the wreck, with 50 bar Rock Bottom remaining to get both of you to the surface (or your Oxygen deco bottle stop of 6m).

Lets say you used up 30 bar already getting to the entrance of the wreck for a total of 170 bar pressure available --can you quickly recalculate Modified-Thirds?

No problem with bar pressure metrics: 170 bar minus 50 bar Rock Bottom yields 120 bar usable for the penentration; One-Third of 120 bar is 40 bar which is your new Modified Thirds turn pressure value. Therefore you would turn the dive when you consume 40 bar for an actual turn pressure SPG reading of 130 bar (170 bar minus 40 bar equals the actual turn pressure SPG reading of 130 bar).

What if you lose your buddy at this instance, at the farthest distance inside the overhead your Modified Thirds value allows? How do you calculate the amount of gas to do a Lost Buddy Search?

Easy! At your turn around pressure reading of 130 bar on the SPG, simply add your Rock Bottom value to your Modified Thirds value (50 bar Rock Bottom plus 40 bar Modified Thirds equals 90 bar); Put a line-arrow pointing the way out on your mainline that you've laid, and take reference note of where you are inside the overhead at that exact point as well. Now go and search for your buddy with the understanding that you must be back at this line-arrow marker by the time your SPG reads this actual value (90 bar). So you would have from 130 bar down to 90 bar reading on your SPG, or 40 bar delta of gas to search for your buddy --if you were to do a straight line search down a long corridor inside the wreck for example, tactically you should use 20 bar out and 20 bar back to your line-arrow marker for a delta of 40 bar, and an actual end of search SPG reading of 90 bar-- you must start your egress whether you found your buddy or not when you use up this 40 bar delta of gas, at the line arrow marker, with the actual 90 bar final reading on your SPG.

At any point before your Modified Thirds turn pressure, for a lost buddy search, the final egress pressure is figured just by adding your Rock Bottom value to the amount of gas you've consumed on the penetration up to that point --for example you start with 170 bar on your SPG and you lose your buddy with 140 bar SPG reading for a delta consumption of 30 bar. 50 bar Rock Bottom plus delta consumption of 30 bar equals 80 bar. Drop a line arrow, and now you've got from 140 bar down to 80 bar (a tactical delta search pressure of 60 bar) to look for your buddy, and be back to your line arrow to egress smartly when your SPG reads 80 bar.

At any point after your Modified Thirds turn pressure, all you need to do to figure out a final egress pressure for a lost buddy search is to subtract your Modified Thirds value from your actual pressure reading, and place a line-arrow pointing out at this point on your mainline. For example, if you're egressing and you lose your buddy with 120 bar actual reading on your SPG: Subtract the Modified Thirds value of 40 bar from 120 bar -which equals 80 bar- and it is this actual reading that you must have on your SPG when you get back to your line arrow to successfully exit the wreck with all your Rock Bottom still available to reach the surface. Another way of looking at this, at your nominal turn-around point & afterward on egress, the amount of gas tactically available for a lost buddy search is always just your Modified Thirds value --in this case 40 bar.

Remember that on a lost buddy search, you will deliberately encroach and use up the Modified Thirds Reserve Value needed for an emergency gas-sharing egress contingency (and possibly use up Rock Bottom as well) --in other words, if you do find your lost buddy and worst of all worst scenarios he happens to be out-of-gas in a silt-out . . .well dea ex machina. I hope you're in a 3-person Team, somehow make it out and run into other divers on the outside who can donate gas & assist. .

[Note: the above gas plan is taken from wreck penetration dives on the HMCS Yukon (San Diego); USS New York (Subic Bay Philippines); HMAS Perth/USS Houston (Sunda Strait Indonesia); and various wrecks in Truk Lagoon. Depth 30m using twin 11L/bar tanks (double AL80's) and Oxygen deco.]
 
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FWIW, at least in the U.S. there's a reasonably authoritative source for some of the definitions (although they use the silly imperial units). According to NOAA:
SAC - Surface Air Consumption (rate) - is pressure / time (e.g. psi per min, what you measure during the dive adjusted for the pressure at depth)

k - cylinder constant = rated volume (ft3) / rated pressure (psi) (Oh how I wish our cylinders were described by actual volume!)

and
RESPIRATORY MINUTE VOLUME (RMV) – is volume / time (e.g. ft3 per minute at the surface )

RMV = SAC x k

Read all about it:
http://www.ndc.noaa.gov/pdfs/AirRqmtFormulas.pdf

This is how I learned it, too. And I agree that it's all much easier to calculate in metric. Although in truth, the folks across the pond are cheating somewhat by using atm (or ATA), since the correct S.I. unit for pressure is the Pascal (Pa), so they should be adding 101,325 Pa (or 101.325 kPa) for each 10m of depth instead of 1 atm... :p
 
... Although in truth, the folks across the pond are cheating somewhat by using atm (or ATA), since the correct S.I. unit for pressure is the Pascal (Pa), so they should be adding 101,325 Pa (or 101.325 kPa) for each 10m of depth instead of 1 atm... :p
No, no, don't go there! :)

They'll just retaliate by making us use slugs instead of pounds.

I marvel at how stupidly complicated we have made something that is, at its heart, so stupidly simple...
 
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in truth, the folks across the pond are cheating somewhat by using atm (or ATA), since the correct S.I. unit for pressure is the Pascal (Pa), so they should be adding 101,325 Pa (or 101.325 kPa) for each 10m of depth instead of 1 atm... :p

You're quite right. A precision of 1.3% is of course totally necessary for this type of calculations :D
 
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