Double bladder for a Halcyon back plate/harness??

[Elemental]

Sorry to do 2 posts so fast, I just reread this...
So- you think it better to add another bottle into the mix. And at 120ft , when you need that extra gas because something went horribly wrong you hope that you grab the right 80...not the one with travel mix, and not the one with 100% Am I the only one that sees a flaw in this theory. Its not that you can't train to grab the right one, its just why complicate things like that? Its called back gas, not slung gas.....Sorry, not to rant, just please explain the logic here.
-J

Well, we're talking about advanced recreational scuba, not technical, so there's not going to be a travel gas or O2 to complicate things. There aren't that many scenarios involving double 80s and a stage at this level either, but it's conceivable.

My preference would be for the drysuit and large steels, but I wouldn't be very concerned about diving wet with a stage, tight passageways aside (again outside the scope of this forum). I would start the dive on the stage, then switch to backgas. If there's a problem with the stage, I'll switch early. If there's a problem with backgas, my buddy is carrying my emergency gas and is there to assist. I wouldn't dive with a buddy I didn't trust implicitly.

 

[String]

Im of the view you should NEVER place yourself in a situation where you have to rely on a buddy, especially the more advanced the dive.

Randomly grabbing cylinders is bad however. You could go "Rich Right, Lean Left" and something like mouthpiece guards but its still not a perfect solution.

I would agree if you're using the stage as a stage for bottom gas (as opposed to deco) to start on that then switch to back gas (obviously with the proper gas planning for reserve etc)

 

[PerroneFord]

Im of the view you should NEVER place yourself in a situation where you have to rely on a buddy, especially the more advanced the dive.

There is a big difference between being reliant upon a buddy, and using one if you have a good one. My buddy is my primary rescue scenario. He is not the one experiencing a major issue, he is not the one fighting stress and elevated heart rates. He is the one looking objectively at my scenario and helping me problem solve. If for some reason my buddy is unavailable or has his own issues, then I am fully prepared to self rescue. But why take the hard route if you don't have to. The "solo mentality" of "I must do everything for myself because I can't trust anyone but ME" is what people say when they have bad buddies.

Randomly grabbing cylinders is bad however. You could go "Rich Right, Lean Left" and something like mouthpiece guards but its still not a perfect solution.

Or, you could actually look at the cylinder, see the MOD on it, and select it. Identifying cylinders by mouth guards, colors, hose covers, or which side of the body it's worn on, is a recipe for trouble. Identify your bottles by MOD, permanently dedicate them to their purpose, and the problem goes away. My air stage says 190 in 3" letters on the side, and my o2 bottle says 20FT on the side in 3" letters. I read it, my buddy confirms, and we're good to go.

 

[String]

There is a big difference between being reliant upon a buddy, and using one if you have a good one. My buddy is my primary rescue scenario.

Thats something i disagree with on all levels. A buddy is unpredictable. No matter who they are, how they've been trained they're a human being. They cannot be guaranteed 100% to always react in a certain way in every situation. Id put self rescue first for that reason alone.

Or, you could actually look at the cylinder, see the MOD on it, and select it.

Nice if you happen to be able to see the cylinder which isnt possible in all conditions. That method is no better than any other. A known gas mix on a know side (and the only cylinder there) will work even when you cant see anything. Make sure its correct on the boat in a stress free environment and you will know its correct underwater unless you start taking them off and moving them around which you're unlikely to do outside a cave.

 

[PerroneFord]

Thats something i disagree with on all levels. A buddy is unpredictable. No matter who they are, how they've been trained they're a human being. They cannot be guaranteed 100% to always react in a certain way in every situation. Id put self rescue first for that reason alone.

Fair enough. Nowhere did I say to rely on a buddy 100%. I said I'd rely on them if I could. If you can't then self rescue. But again, this is a question that goes to mindset. Not performance or skill.

Nice if you happen to be able to see the cylinder which isnt possible in all conditions. That method is no better than any other. A known gas mix on a know side (and the only cylinder there) will work even when you cant see anything. Make sure its correct on the boat in a stress free environment and you will know its correct underwater unless you start taking them off and moving them around which you're unlikely to do outside a cave.

If you cannot identify the bottle, then don't switch gas. Stay on what you have until you CAN identify the switch. Treat the scenario as a "lost gas" scenario if you must. A right rich left lean, has hurt or killed more than one diver. I agree that making sure on the boat or wherever in a stress free environment should make the difference. But it doesn't always.

 

[PfcAJ]

You would (not could) drop into the abyss long before you could deploy a lift bag. Then RIP.

This "lift bag" notion is one of the many GUE-DIR myths. GI3 must have thought of this idea during one of his many binges, and then indoctrinated his many lemmings with it.

Lift bags are designed to lift things off the bottom, after they have reached the bottom first.

You're right about one thing. It is a DIR myth. I've taken a GUE class or 4, and never was a liftbag a solution for getting off the bottom. Diving a well balanced rig coupled with a touch of common sense is the answer to this issue.

 

[ucfdiver]

Sorry to do 2 posts so fast, I just reread this...
So- you think it better to add another bottle into the mix. And at 120ft , when you need that extra gas because something went horribly wrong you hope that you grab the right 80...not the one with travel mix, and not the one with 100% Am I the only one that sees a flaw in this theory. Its not that you can't train to grab the right one, its just why complicate things like that? Its called back gas, not slung gas.....Sorry, not to rant, just please explain the logic here.
-J

Couldn't you just grab your backgas that's clipped off on your shoulder dring, since that's the deepest mix? I don't do stage diving yet, but that seems fairly basic?

 

[danvolker]

You would (not could) drop into the abyss long before you could deploy a lift bag. Then RIP.

This "lift bag" notion is one of the many GUE-DIR myths. GI3 must have thought of this idea during one of his many binges, and then indoctrinated his many lemmings with it.

Lift bags are designed to lift things off the bottom, after they have reached the bottom first.

Nearass, why do you post such crap on this board?
Many people in non-life threatening situations, have deployed a lift bag at depth, and had the reel jam, or lost it, and ended up with no lift bag and no lift....not to mention the difficulty of performing this flawlessly if your life is endanger....case in point---If you go on the tech list, you can pull up the divers Supply Triple Death Tragedy, where instructor andre smith and students were heavily weighted with double steels, thick wetsuits and one student had a bungie wing that was not holding gas.....The lone survivor, told us that Andre could not get the student off the bottom with his own BC, and then shot a liftbag to gain the needed lift---and the liftbag was jerked out of his hand, leaving him without a way to get to the surface...He and the student died, and one other diver--John Claypool, who had gotten off the bottom, went back down to help the 2 negative divers, and ended up dieing himself.

A liftbag is fine for lifting anchors and artifcats off the bottom...it is not fine for replacing a balanced wing/tanks/exposure suit combo.

Dan V