(drumrole) Yet Another DIR Question!!!!!

[Iguana Don]

Originally posted by LiveGoat
Okay, I've been diving DIR for awhile now and have one small problem. Whenever I need to look at my pressure guage I have to turn my head as far left as possible and look out of the corner of my eye while gently tugging the SPG into my field of view. If I'm wearing a snorkle (while in the ocean), this is even more difficult as the snorkle's mouthpiece can get in the way of my fleeting window of opportunity. The SPG is clipped on my left belt D-ring, so am I supposed to unclip it in order to comfortably view everytime I need to check my air? Am I clipping it in the wrong place? Is the hose too short? I thought there were rules about length (LOL)! I really love my rig because it's so damn streamlined and comfortable, but that's my only complaint. I'm using an ACB weight integrated system, but I don't think that would cause any problems. Has anyone else had this happen, or am I just insane?

Thanks.

------Ray

BLTN...Pablum....Restrictive.....do you know who you are replying to.....these words are not even in my vocabulary.

I would never vote to be restrictive. But as you can read he ask nothing about computers, redundant computers or anything else, he merely ask a question about SPG placement.
Sure anyone can post on any topic on the board and that's what makes this such a great place. But IMHO the advice that bradymsu gave was way off base and topic.
Pablum, not on your life, you have been here long enough to know that just won't happen.

ID

 

[BetterLateThannever]

I just don't agree with it. At least, not completely.

Yes, I do agree that Brady technically went beyond the limited scope of the question: but so what? Most threads on this board do the same at some point or another, ie; I started a thread "Kind of a neat milestone", which basically announces my receipt of the perma c-card.

The thread has now evolved into a discussion of underwater photography. Slightly off-topic. Again, I say, so what? That sort of thing happens all over the board. As long as people are not being abusive or profane; I don't see the harm.


It just seemed to me that your response to Brady's post was a little out of character. Normally, you are the epitome of easy-going, "let it all hang out" discourse. (gold lame wetsuit comes to mind).

Again, I believe that we all are capable of discriminating between the suggestions that make sense and the ones that don't. IMO, IMHO, my .02 etc.

 

[Frog]

Ray

Yup your supposed to unclip your SPG from the left hip to view your air pressure. This is just a small sacrafice to the cave divers to have to unlip there SPG. Fortunately i can see my SPG when clipped onto the left hip D-ring so i dont have your problem, but try moving the d-ring a little further forward and it may solve your problem.

Omar

The ACB system is very good and well streamlined, why would you suggest that someone not use it. It has plastic buckles yes , fair enough, but they arnt under any form of stress. They are manufactured by the most famous DIR gear company - Halcyon. I must admitt i dont like it, i just sent my ACB system back because i found it too bulky. I was thinking about getting a conventional weightbelt but how do you then clip off onto the left d-ring when its not accessable. Just want your opionion please Omar.

Bradymsu was trying to put his opinion across to try and help. But looking at it from a constructive point of view it doesnt serve to answer Rays question since he did already mention that he is on route to DIR. But Bradymsu, you are plainly ill informed about DIR. Let me explain.

Its always the same...a DIR diver says "we plan and eliminate all failure points etc" the recreational diver says "well most things can fail including regs bottles backplates etc" COmputers always pop up in these conversations but people are missing the point as to why DIR divirs DO NOT USE computers.

The DIR system was introduced by the Florida cave divers, if they used computers to calculate there decompression stops and everything else, what would they do if it failed? Well i for one would ascend and scratch the dive as would most people. However the point is that cavers dive in overhead environments and they CANNOT just call the dive and surface whenever they feel like it. Therefore they DO NOT USE computers to calculate there ndl, decompression obligations etc. Theres no point having multiple computers of exactly the same make and model either becuase computers vary slightly from eachother including there position on the divers body. This is just one example were non DIR divers dont know enough about DIR to start saying "well i dont agree with the DIR philosophy". Most of them miss the point in its entirety and then a mass argument ensues which provides no benefit to the person who asked the question in the first place. All i am saying here is (to non DIR informed divers) dont knock what you dont understand, fair enough if you understand it then your opinion is obviously welcome. - Rant over lol

Oh and Bradymsu, this wasnt aimed at you specifically, please please dont take offense. Your opinions are probably very valid and you have some good ideas , but its not what the DIR diver wants, thats all.

/me Stands by the nearest fire engine in asbestos underwear and a foil fire retardent suit :-/

 

[bradymsu]

Frog,

Thanks for your reply. You'll find no flames coming from me. It's unfortunate that technical diving discussions always have to be so political. Though it's getting way off topic and I won't pursue it here, it would be nice to have an exchange of ideas that does not involve trying to exclude certain ideas, putting down another diver or his/her buddies or suggesting that someone is ignorant even though they may not share a particular opinion. Don't assume I'm ignorant/ill-informed about DIR just because I don't agree with it 100%.

The premise I'm operating on is that recreational and technical divers are not military or commercial divers in that we have both the freedom and responsibility to continually question our own styles and those of other divers in order to learn and improve our diving. Even a diver who has adopted the label of DIR needs to remind himself that this isn't a license to exclude other ideas or insultate himself from considering non-DIR concepts regardless of whether he is diving in caves, deep wrecks, warm Carribean open waters, etc.

 

[omar]

Frog,

If the spg is positioned correctly you do not need to unclip it. Messing around with the spg when under pressure can lead to premature failure of the hose and seal around the swivel.

Just because the ACB system is made by Halcyon does not make it DIR. As you noted it has plastic buckles, this alone is enough to eliminate it. However, when technical diving you are doing extended depth and time which requires a drysuit. With a drysuit you need argon. The argon bottle is placed on the left hip behind the d-ring but it should also be removable. This can’t be done with the ACB pouch on the left. In addition, a canister light is carried on the right that also needs to be ditchable. Again the pouches will prevent this.

I do not understand what you are trying to do by clipping off on a weight belt. When I do single tank dives which include the weight belt there is no problem with the belt and harness interfering with each other.

omar

 

[Frog]

Bradymsu, i arnt a presumptuous kind of person, i wasnt making a point of you disagreeing, but the argument you put forward was not truthful with respect to DIR, thus i just pointed out that you were ill informed, or atleast mis- informed. DIR divers dont assume that they will be ok because they "think" they have planned for the worse. No were in the DIR philosophy does it say about diving ONLY with people who have the same kit configuration as yourself. DIR divers do NOT "rely" on there buddy for safety and life support they use teamwork as an effective means of increasing the safety of each dive. All none truths Bradymsu, i dont know were you got you information from (i hope not just from these boards) but i suggest that you do some reading on the DIR thing whether you are for or against.

http://www.gue.com
http://www.dis-uk.org
http://www.wkpp.org

"The premise I'm operating on is that recreational and technical divers are not military or commercial divers in that we have both the freedom and responsibility to continually question our own styles and those of other divers in order to learn and improve our diving. Even a diver who has adopted the label of DIR needs to remind himself that this isn't a license to exclude other ideas or insultate himself from considering non-DIR concepts regardless of whether he is diving in caves, deep wrecks, warm Carribean open waters, etc".

I for one dont exclude ideas i consider them wisely before coming to any conclusions, lets not make blanket statements and put all DIR divers into a box. I choose to conform to DIR becuase i (like you said above) decide to take note of the amazing safety record (since DIR was introduced) of the WKPP/GUE considering the EXTREME nature of their cave diving. This form of diving is probably more dangerous than most diving done by commercial or military personel. In such extreme environments you will find many RULES which apply to ANYONE who decides to take this route and without question those rules are followed , and for good reason.

"However, when technical diving you are doing extended depth and time which requires a drysuit. With a drysuit you need argon. The argon bottle is placed on the left hip behind the d-ring but it should also be removable. This can’t be done with the ACB pouch on the left. In addition, a canister light is carried on the right that also needs to be ditchable. Again the pouches will prevent this".

Omar, you are talking of extended range/trimix etc. Argon is NOT "needed" it is only an option, and according to GUE , yes you can position the argon bottle on the left behind the ACB weight pouch. Again on the right with the canister light there is no problem attaching one onto the weight pouch. Omar i think for everyones benefit that you should at least try equipment before telling people what it is or what it isnt, from what you have said you clearly havnt used the Halcyon ACB pouches. The ACB system IS DIR according to Halcyon and GUE although i have been told that GUE instructors prefer the ACB system to be used in open water only. The pouches have been designed specifically for what you just said they were not good for.

Regarding my question to you Omar...i never said i was clipping off onto a weightbelt , i sugested that if you were going to use a conventional weight belt (which most people attach after there backplate harness) it could and probably would interfere with any hip d-rings on the backplate harness. Omar how are you wearing your weightbelt so as not to interfere with the crotch strap and hip d-rings. For example i was going to buy a bowstone shot weightbelt but it would have probably rendered my hip d-rings useless, heres a link of the belt i was considering:
http://www.cybaqua.co.uk/acatalog/dw2_d7681_lge.jpg

PS: In no way whatsoever did i mean to offend or to get personal with any one here. Lets keep this thread civil, its difficult sometimes but i am sure we can manage it Apologies to you guys if i did manage to offend anyone. Cheers

 

[omar]

Frog

straight from gue:
http://www.gue.com/equipment/backplate.shtml#integrated

"Backplates vs. Integrated Units
..... The use of integrated units with padding and built-in pockets is really not appropriate for more advanced diving techniques."

Gee it seems that they may be taking advantage of you. Show me where on the GUE site that it advocates the ACB system.

My opinion of the Halcyon weight pocket system is that Halcyon is in the business to make money and a certain amount of their efforts have to be directed to the gullible dive market. Because if the gullible diver does not buy the ACB from Halcyon they will buy them from somebody else.

The accidental release of a buckle system could easily result in a loss of weight. The diver will most likely rapidly ascend to the surface, resulting in serious injury or death. Divers are occasionally confused into believing that convenience is a more important concern than safety during the dive. It is never a reasonable trade-off to accept a potentially fatal risk (buckles, weight pouches) in favor of a minor convenience. If you need weight you can add weight behind the backplate or use a heavier stainless plate.

You need to set up your gear so that when you drop your weights you can *swim* up to the surface. This means you need a steel backplate and possibly a v-weight with 4 or 6 lbs on a regular, old fashioned weight belt. OR the 4-6 lb can be the canister light or a weight that goes on the belt in place of the light.

I put the weight belt on under the harness and under the crotch strap. The crotch strap will catch it if it comes undone. It needs a deliberate dropping to send it to the bottom. It is very rare when I even use one anymore and it is usually a result of having a less than optimal setup.

Go do some extended dives and then tell me that argon is not needed. While I have not used the ACB, I have in the past, used Dive Rite pockets. You are being fed a line if you think that you can get your argon bottle off of your belt while you have the pockets on.

Hip d-rings? Plural?? You only need one. What convolution are you doing?

 

[Frog]

Hey Omar, dont have time to type much right now, althouh i will say, ooops i didnt mean d-rings plural. I know several divers who do not use argon and dive in the 60-70 metre bracket. Ill try to post again soon. Cheers

Well im back hehhe. Ok Omar i understand about the buckles etc on the ACB system and a dangerous ascent may ensue (one of the reasons i sent it back). However about what i already said, the GUE instructor of which i spoke said those things to me, whether or not they were a "line" is not for me to assume nor yourself. I cannot argue whether it was a line or not, but they said what they said for whatever reason. they said the ACB was fine for normal DIR open water diving, they didnt indicate whether this was for deeper tech dives too. The GUE site doesnt answer the question on whether or not the ACB system is valid in open water rec depths for DIR divers. They are a long way off taking advantage of me, i brought the subject up because i wanted opinions, which i got and i appreciate that thanks.


Omar one thing i am certain of here is that you need much more ditchable weight than you profess, namely for open water diving in the North Sea. I dive in the North Sea with often huge swells and you NEED alot of buoyancy on the surface if you dont want to drown. Now if your dry suit was to flood at depth well this is where you need the extra lift by droping your weights in an emergency. At the surface you would only have your wing to keep your head above water. Most tech divers in the North Sea are using around at least 6kg's (often 30-50% total weight)of ditchable weight, for obvious reasons. I am now just starting to dive the North Sea every weekend. I have tried 6 kgs on a normal weightbelt with my harness placed over it but its just too uncomfortable and unstable. I may have to opt for a seperate harness weight system. I will draw to a close since i am getting a little off subject. Cheers

PS: Omar if you want to continue this conversation by e-mail or whatever i would be glad to oblige
froggy.@another.com or send me a private message, cheers i appreciate it.

 

[LiveGoat]

I did it again! I posted a question on DIR and made people hate each other! I'm really sorry! J/K

Actually I appreciate all the responses I got on this subject from Long Hosers and Strokes alike (don't be offended, I'm probably a stroke as well). I value everyones opinion on this board, cause sometimes the best insight can come from someone outside the situation. Anywho, I've decided that for now, the ACB is fine, given that I'm just an OW diver using a single tank with a 36lb wing. When I get into deeper more challenging stuff (doubles, etc...)I plan to lose the weight integration. Other than the acb, I'm as compliant as is possible for an OW diver can be. I totally agree with the no snorkle idea. Just gotta find a way to stow it for ocean dives.

Again, thanks to everyone who participated and I'm sorry for causing such a stir, but I will say that of all the boards I've been on (and this includes the "expert" tech guys) there is so much civility and respect toward one another that even during a heated debate, those observing can still be informed by that debate. Why? Because it doesn't turn into a flamewar. Kudos to everyone on this board. Well except for that Jester guy, but he's not really a member, is he? =)

----Ray (Destroking since 1999)

 

[bwollard]

With BP/wings and diving a single tank, do you wear your weight belt under or over the harness?