E-Learning: the way forward or maybe not?

[MauiScubaSteve]

For some regular posers, eliminating the PADI bias would leave them with nothing to type!

I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, I truly am, but suspecting PADI to have ulterior motives is a natural, learned behavior.

A little defensive here Thal? I was not even considering you when I made that post. Did you notice the word after "regular"? Poser you are not.

My feelings are not "hurt" and have nothing to do with the blatant and often ignorant PADI bashing from some regular posers.

 

[Thalassamania]

I am just trying to tell you politely that the points you are making good or bad they are have nothing to do with the nature of the post though you seem convinced they have so have fun

What is your native language? Though I could be wrong, you do not seem to be getting the fine points of English and I fear that this prevents you from seeing that what I am saying is spot on. I am lead to this conclusion by your inconsistent verb conjugation and pronoun choice; though I may, of course, be misinterpreting those artifacts.

 

[Interceptor121]

Oops you are referencing a post that does not exist?

 

[Thalassamania]

A little defensive here Thal? I was not even considering you when I made that post. Did you notice the word after "regular"? Poser you are not.

My feelings are not "hurt" and have nothing to do with the blatant and often ignorant PADI bashing from some regular posers.

Sorry, I was trying to be sensitive to your feelings because I respect you opinions.

Oops you are referencing a post that does not exist?

No, I'm referencing a post that you made and then altered, I merely preserved it in the form that it was in when I quoted it, that's the way Scubaboard works, it's a trap that we all fall into from time to time.
So here is what you changed it to:

I don't think you can express a real opinion on a curriculum you believe it is flawed and inadequate in the first place, this is what you said to me isn't it? however you are definitely rambling along well!!! Have fun

Sure I can, my opinion is, as you state, that it sucks because it is flawed and inadequate.

 

[gcbryan]

But you can not separate the delivery method from the content. If the learning objectives that the program content is developed to meet are inadequate, it really does not matter how good the delivery system is. Similarly if an e-learning system delivers a more thorough understanding that a particular instructor does, that is hardly a validation of the delivery system, except as it is when compared to that instructor ... it says nothing what-so-ever about how it would fair with other instructors. There is a community of instructors who use a final exam that is, basically, the old NAUI Master Dive exam (Instructor level) and who require 80% to pass with 100% on the Decompression Section. Show me an e-learning system that can begin to approach this.

I'm sure an e-learning system could do that. If the person who taught such a class in the first place (you) were to put together an e-learning system why should such a thing not be possible?

I'm sure it would be even more valuable even in such a scenario for a student to attend your classes in person but there's no reason an e-learning system couldn't accomplish a great deal if done correctly.

Let's face it. You are posting in an "e" environment right now. Most people reading your posts will never meet you in person. Yet, the fact that you are posting suggests that you feel it has some value.

I'm not suggesting that the PADI e-learning program is a great step forward but the post is really about PADI e-learning as an option. It's a low bar I know but that is the subject.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm sure an e-learning system could do that. If the person who taught such a class in the first place (you) were to put together an e-learning system why should such a thing not be possible?

I'd argue that is could not since it could not respond as I would to they myriad complexities of human interactions.

I'm sure it would be even more valuable even in such a scenario for a student to attend your classes in person but there's no reason an e-learning system couldn't accomplish a great deal if done correctly.

I have never disagreed with that, a great deal may be accomplished, but "as good" as human? Never.

Let's face it. You are posting in an "e" environment right now. Most people reading your posts will never meet you in person. Yet, the fact that you are posting suggests that you feel it has some value.

I have never disagreed with that, in fact, I pointed precisely that out not too long ago. But face it, it is as good as sitting down face to face with a Black Sand Porter?

I'm not suggesting that the PADI e-learning program is a great step forward but the post is really about PADI e-learning as an option. It's a low bar I know but that is the subject.

The point is that PADI e-learning is not only a rather low bar that just about any instructor could slither over, it is also a spear aimed right at the heart of PADI Instructors, it will cause more "Instructors" to be certified and will reduce the income of Instructors. If it does a better job at training students that the Instructors who are already out there, I guess that's their fault and a result of their failing(s), I know that it does not threaten my tiny niche at all.

 

[leapfrog]

I suspect that the e-learning option is an attempt to lower the cost of training each individual student and also is another step in PADI's ongoing program to enable ever less capable individuals to become diving "instructors."

I am a PADI Instructor and even I have to agree with that! I just don't get the point of churning out thousands of instructors every year that haven't completed any form of higher education, have no further learning goals and think that OWSI is the "end" instead of "the beginning".

It's a pity that the less capable people are often te people who get the jobs on the slave market but that's not for discussion here.

OTOH, on the subject of making choices of which agency to train with, depending where you are in the world, you may or may not have any real choices.

The informed PADI Instructor will continue his eduaction both within the PADI system and outside, with or without eLearning. (I'm enrolling on another instructor course through eLearning right now).

In so much as OWD eLearning replaces a book and a DVD, it makes sense to me. If it totally rules out classroom time of OW students with the Instructor, then we've just gone cuckoo.

I think it's time to start a thread about what level of qualifications and experience an Instructor should have to make him or her "Scubaboard worthy". But even that discussion won't address the fact that two instructors with identical qualifications and "diving experience" will still be two totally different animals.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I'd argue that is could not since it could not respond as I would to they myriad complexities of human interactions.
I have never disagreed with that, a great deal may be accomplished, but "as good" as human? Never.
I have never disagreed with that, in fact, I pointed precisely that out not too long ago. But face it, it is as good as sitting down face to face with a Black Sand Porter?

I agree with you in theory, but in practice is where I think these sorts of arguments break down.

As far as "academic stuff" I've learned about diving most was either from the PADI manual or reading / watching things online. Very little was from the classroom sections. I've learned a ton from reading on here, and there is no reason any of that can't be incorporated into an e-learning program

Imagine I (or you, or somebody, doesn't matter) decide to make a competitor to PADI's e-learning aimed at the same market (not UTD's or anything). In it we incorporate the DAN "I think I might be bent" video, we incorporate NWGratefulDiver's gas management material, other material from experienced divers, etc. Additionally, we incorporate advice from some of the greatest divers in history. We have direct postings by these people, videos, audio lectures, etc. Maybe we even have an online chat with these people (something that would be difficult to achieve in local dive centers). There is obviously a great deal of potential.

Now in theory I agree with you that a better system would be if all these people could talk to the classes in person. In reality, this will never happen. At best, some lucky students will get 1 or 2 inspirational instructors to meet in person. E-learning gives the potential for all divers to get instruction from inspirational divers, and not just 1 or 2 either.

Considering what I've learned online, I simply have trouble believing that a properly constructed e-learning course could not be better than 90% of courses today. Would a properly constructed in person course do the same? Sure, but you lose out on some of the potential benefits, and it's arguable if a mainstream agency can find enough quality instructors to give the same benefit.

In conclusion, I think e-learning is getting blamed for something that has nothing to do with it. That is PADI's low standards, certification card barrage, substandard instruction, catering to vacation divers, etc. I agree that all of these are problems, but I just don't see the delivery method as the problem.

The point is that PADI e-learning is not only a rather low bar that just about any instructor could slither over, it is also a spear aimed right at the heart of PADI Instructors, it will cause more "Instructors" to be certified and will reduce the income of Instructors. If it does a better job at training students that the Instructors who are already out there, I guess that's their fault and a result of their failing(s), I know that it does not threaten my tiny niche at all.

PADI requires 25 dives to enrol in the DiveMaster program ... I don't see e-learning as the problem here.

I've set my own minimum standards for me to enrol in a DiveMaster program (which I'd like to some day):
- at least 300 dives, preferably 500
- NAUI Master Scuba Diver, PADI Rescue Diver, various specialties
- some GUE or UTD courses to truly challenge myself
- hopefully at least have started tec training

I simply don't want to be responsible for others (other than my buddy) until I feel I'm as close to a "perfect" recreational diver as I can be.

The reason I'm posting this here is if PADI had requirements more similar to that, we wouldn't be sitting here complaining about the delivery method.

 

[leapfrog]

PADI requires 25 dives to enrol in the DiveMaster program ... /QUOTE] Noooo...it requires 30...that's a BIG difference...

 

[Web Monkey]

I'm not sure if there is much justification for this "slippery slope" argument. I just don't see the link between online training and dropping the confined dives and turning the checkout dives into a single dive with a DM.

There's perfect justification for it. PADI has lead the world in shortening SCUBA classes and paring down the curriculum, the time required to complete it and the associated skills. Whenever there's been any action that speeds up the certification process, PADI has been the leader.

This isn't PADI bashing, it's simply stating the facts.

And yes, it is a "slippery slope", but not an invalid one.

Once the largest certification agency in the world starts making training faster, with less resources required from the instructor and dive shop, there's no business case for them to stop the slide.

If PADI really wanted to make training cheaper or take more profits, they could drop the checkout dives to one dive with a DM with or without the internet: I just don't see the connection.

The connection is that with online training, they can completely eliminate any contact with an instructor before the checkout dives. They can't do this without online training.

I also don't get why this becomes listed as a "tourist" technology: as TSAndM stated, UTD uses online training, and they are cetainly not a "tourist agency". Granted, PADI has a bad record of dumbing down training; however, I think because of that people are automatically making an association where there may be none. "If PADI is doing something it must be to dumb down training, further cater to tourists, etc.".

I don't know anything about UDT, but I'm guessing they don't do a weekend certification and aren't working to make training as fast as possible, which means this doesn't apply.

PADI actually markets SCUBA as tourist entertainment. "Discover SCUBA" is a huge business and a tremendous money maker.

It's only logical to assume they plan on continuing down this path.

Terry