Etiquette of “NO, you are not diving with us”

[piikki]

>>Anyway, this is your thread, so I won't go into any further details...but suffice to say, I sympathize with you.<<

Hey JT, definitely no problem adding your story to the thread! For me my incident was a real crash course in learning, and hopefully leads to real attitude adjustment in long term. I shared it despite akwardness of all the mistakes made and the anticlimactic nature of the outcome – I am so happy I didn’t need to put it up in the real incidents thread!

To clarify for Barry:
>>Erm, I guess you were there, but to me this sounds like classic distress signals. I would be rescuing the guy at this point. If I got there and he said "Oh, I was just waving", I would drop his weights and rescue him anyway to teach him a lesson>>

I think we all managed to avoid ‘waving’ the distress signal. Like we had the ‘what???’ palm in the air, and considering he stood in the mids of dozen swimmers INSIDE the swimming area in 4ft of water by the time he turned, we kind of did not think he needed rescuing per se. I think I might have ripped something else than the weight belt off of him… Have to work on that too.

>>As I was clearly the least experienced diver, I considered myself lucky.<<

I think therein lies one problem with novices. Galscuba was kind of in the same soup. I think this kind of measuring will need to go too. Didn’t they teach me in the OW that ultimately you are always responsible for your own decisions and life? I think so. It’s nice to have someone one can rely on but I gotta drop this, and - while not become foolishly self-reliant – remember that when I pull my neoprene on my brain doesn’t squeeze out of the collar. I am capable of using my senses even though I don’t have 1000+ dives and all the skills yet. If I usually make somewhat sound choices why wouldn’t I trust my head in scuba too – at least above 80ft… It’s like some sort of regression – like by taking someone with more experience with you, you could magically lessen the dangers, so it’s automatically a great deal. Well, unfortunately the numbers aren’t going to be the indicator of the power of this shield.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could peg everyone, and then say he’s 324 dives safer than I am? Then you could actually know if someone’s safe enough for you. Not to badmouth experience in any way but there are many kinds of people doing scuba. Not all rookies are in the bottom of the safety ladder, and even if they were they still should look out for themselves if someone shakes the ladder. Even if you can’t formulate the argument in fine words, burp out the no.

 

[DivemasterWill]

Saying no is a tough thing, but when someone is turning blue from a neck seal or hood that is too tight, that's a pretty darned good reason to tell them you're not comfortable going under with them.

I had a diver turning beet red on me while wearing a drysuit he had bought 5 years and 30 pounds ago. Of course, this was after a 200 yard surface swim. We told him no, 3 divers went on the dive, and 2 of us brought him back in. He was pretty annoyed with us for saying no at the time, but after he cooled down a bit, he realized we were acting in his best interest. He bought a new drysuit (that actually fit) the next week, and we've been out with him quite a few times since then.

Whenever you can site a safety issue, it's in your best interest to say no. Yes, each diver is ultimately responsible for himself, but when dealing with someone you don't know, better safe than sorry. I'd much rather have someone pissed off at me than have to deal with an emergency at depth and / or have to apply my Rescue skills.

~Will

 

[Jeff Toorish]

Hi JT, I'm also an avid pilot. Im a little confused by your report that the instructor "pulled his license" - while the FAA can suspend or revoke an airmans certificate I'm not familiar with any regulation which allows a CFI this privilige. Can you elaborate?

I was using a little poetic license there. The instructor said the guy could not fly from that FBO without going up for a check ride. Because that's the only place around there to rent a plane, that pretty much grounded the guy until he could be checked out. Although, if memory serves, there was some mention of notifying the FAA about this if the guy didn't like the arrangement.

JT

 

[Willie]

I would not agree with that. On Scubaboard one can at least PM, discuss the dive site, experience levels, expectations, and just about any other aspect of a dive before even meeting the diver!!

When someone walks up to you on a shore, you know nothing other than they are there, with gear, wanting to dive.

OK I am new and I am more likely to be the third I suppose. But I find this thread very educational for either side of this situation.

I believe piikki hit the nail on the head right here. The bold added by me.

b) the trap of vagueness ... It just got too far before we really figured out what was going on.

Communication was lacking and understanding was lacking. Having not planned together -- whether in advance of coming to the beach or after the introduction of the 'insta-buddy' -- seems to me to be the problem here. It also sounds to me like an excellent reason to turn someone down. 'Sorry, we are not in a postition to modify our plan ....'

Or possibly, at the first encounter, 'If you want to dive with us as a threesome, then we need to take time now, to plan the dive, before getting in the water....' assuming you really dont mind as long as the preparation is sufficient.

The post by RonFrank illustrates the inverse. Plenty of opportunity to discuss experience, expectations, contigencies, etc. ahead of time.

On the other side, I definitely wont mind anyone saying 'no' to me. I would much rather someone tell me 'no' than find out they wanted to and didnt. I dont want to be diving with someone who has an elevated anxiety, especially if it is caused by my presence.

Great thread. Thanks to all for posting.

Willie

 

[Willie]

My apologies for that. ... Sorry about the poor delivery.

Its the sun-glasses and the tough look that are intimidating. Havent I seen you somewhere before?

Just kidding.

Willie

 

[piikki]

OK I am new and I am more likely to be the third I suppose. But I find this thread very educational for either side of this situation.

I believe piikki hit the nail on the head right here. The bold added by me.
Communication was lacking and understanding was lacking. Having not planned together -- whether in advance of coming to the beach or after the introduction of the 'insta-buddy' -- seems to me to be the problem here. It also sounds to me like an excellent reason to turn someone down. 'Sorry, we are not in a postition to modify our plan ....'

Or possibly, at the first encounter, 'If you want to dive with us as a threesome, then we need to take time now, to plan the dive, before getting in the water....' assuming you really dont mind as long as the preparation is sufficient.

The post by RonFrank illustrates the inverse. Plenty of opportunity to discuss experience, expectations, contigencies, etc. ahead of time.

On the other side, I definitely wont mind anyone saying 'no' to me. I would much rather someone tell me 'no' than find out they wanted to and didnt. I dont want to be diving with someone who has an elevated anxiety, especially if it is caused by my presence.

Great thread. Thanks to all for posting.

Willie

Thanks for your post too Willie. I've certainly used this experience AND this thread to my benefit - even in the last couple of weeks. Not directly by yelling noNOno to everyone approaching like I predicted but considering situations where the ‘weakness’ can strike me, and pull me under again. Like eg when I’ve met someone who’s pretty reliable, nice, and I’ve even had a chance to observe that their skills underwater are basically OK - BUT there is still something nagging that makes me very much want to say no if they wanted to join us as a third instead of coming along with their own buddy or as a part of a group lead by someone. (I am referring to singular things like a tendency to dart around in mad dashes, ignoring/snorting at certain parts of safety checks I consider needed etc). I had to rehearsh in my mind how I would be assertive 'in case' even now that it’s not a ‘nobody and unknown’ – because same principals still apply if I do not feel like I should take this person along as a third. Funny how these things start following you around! I have had nobody ask me join as a third since the incident but I’ve sensed the possibility in the air.

I did think the story would help people in my position but I was very happy when some people on the other side also found bits enlightening, and saw what a bind it can be. No reason to put one party on the spot - if the one asking does not make saying no extra difficult, it cannot but lead to more honest answers. Ultimately whatever pressure though, I need to be able to keep my end because I am responsible for myself first and foremost. Naivete about every diver being super smart and super nice and super safe is going to get me screwed. Informed decision surely would be great – I don’t want to feel that foolish ever again! Somebody should have gotten a photo of my wide eyed look when I finally realized he was going to DIVE with us. Like.... you... going... WITH... us????

 

[Willie]

... there is still something nagging that makes me very much want to say no if they wanted to join us as a third instead of coming along with their own buddy or as a part of a group lead by someone. (I am referring to singular things like a tendency to dart around in mad dashes, ignoring/snorting at certain parts of safety checks I consider needed etc). I had to rehearsh in my mind how I would be assertive 'in case' even now that it’s not a ‘nobody and unknown’ – because same principals still apply if I do not feel like I should take this person along as a third. Funny how these things start following you around! I have had nobody ask me join as a third since the incident but I’ve sensed the possibility in the air.

I suppose it could be argued that certain above-water skills are important to develop as well.

- go/no-go based on the circumstances, ie., we planned it and we really want to go diving, but the weather isnt cooperating
- not with us, thanks for asking
- developing good pre-dive routine​

On the topic of threesomes... Seems like a threesome requires very clear understanding, skills and plan of its own. Even if you are with people you are very comfortable with it can be quite confusing.

I had to do that on the first lake dive. Vis was horrible, about 3' I estimate. There were six of us -- 4 students, our instructor and an experienced diver who hadnt been down in awhile. He was along because he was the father of one of the students.

When it came time for a little fun exploring, because of the bad vis the instructor decided to have 2 of us follow him and the other two students stick with the other cert diver. All six of us were supposed to make this circuit underwater looking at the stuff to see, sunken 25' boat, motorcycle, submerged bridge, etc. We were following a rope line on the bottom.

I could see my instructors fins but not his waist. If my buddy didnt stay right on my tail I couldnt see him at all. At one point I am distressed -- do I stay with the instructor or with the buddy? I could not physically do both under the circumstances. I decided to stick with the instructor, that is what he had told both of us students to do.

Worked out OK, but we ended up in 2 pairs and 2 singles coming to the surface to figure out where everyone else was. And we were not very close to each other.

I asked the instructor the next day how to handle a three person dive. I had thought about it overnight and had two solutions, either of which seemed reasonable as long as everyone knew the plan.

It seems that this first comment should apply to either scenario if at all possible. Swim side-by-side so that it is easy for any person to see the other 2 without having to work too hard at it. In very low vis, the outside person wouldnt be able to see the other outside person but could still easily see the leader. And the leader could easily see either of the other divers. I like this idea and the instructor recommended it as well.

Now for execution of the plan. I could see two possibilities.

1. One leader -- each other person is responsible to stay with the leader. The leader is responsible to stay with both of the others.

2. A is responsible for B. B is responsible for C. C is responsible for A. This way each diver only has one other person to keep up with.

My instructor said if he was diving, it would definitely be plan 1 -- and he would be the leader.

I have since made one additional day of 2 dives in 10' vis at a quarry where three of us used plan 1. We chose who was going to lead and the others followed. Worked really well.

Just my thoughts. Love to hear what anyone else has to say about diving as a threesome.

Willie

 

[Ber Rabbit]

The "we're training" works well for whatever dive of the day you are doing. You can use something like "My buddy's ears/sinuses were acting up on the last dive so we are just going to try this dive but he/she probably won't even be able to get down and I don't dive alone with people I don't know at new sites, sorry maybe next time." or "I wasn't very comfortable on the last dive and diving a threesome for the first time will just make me stress more, sorry, maybe when I have more experience I'll be comfortable with a threesome."

Or just plain "Sorry, we don't dive threesomes at new sites it's too stressful for us as new divers."

If you place the blame on you by stating "sorry" and tell them your comfort level, unfamiliarity with the site, unfamiliar gear, ear/sinus issues, etc. is keeping you from adding an additional person (aka stress point) on this dive then say "maybe next time when I'm comfortable" it's a little easier and an experienced diver will understand.

Believe me, if I can do it you can too I hate telling people "no" but I've learned the hard way to listen to that internal alarm and make up an excuse if I have to.
Ber :lilbunny: