Etiquette of “NO, you are not diving with us”

[piikki]

DiveMe
<<Okay, but I'm still waiting to hear what the guy did after he got on shore. Come on, tell the end of the story!!>>

It’s going to very anticlimactic! We are bobbing in the chops, the guy gets up at the beach buoys, and it takes him ages to turn his face back towards the lake, so we have time to grunt a few times. We wait and finally he seems to check back, and we wave and like “wha?”. He waves, then takes his mask off, and waves the mask in the air. Then he seems to make some sort of a sign, and we are like “wha?” again. I think he’s fiddling with his gear, not communicating with us – so we are like ‘is he starting to fix his gear to come back???

We stare at each other, and say about simultaneously that “do not tell me he is planning to come back”, and then “I know we should surface swim to him and have a long talk but guess if I feel like”. He seems ok so what the heck is he surfacing over 100ft from us?? Then he seems to wave again, I see him putting his face into the water INSIDE the swimming area (strictly forbidden), and his tank is lolling in above the water (it’s like 5 ft there). We are like ARGHHH! But he does not submerge, lifeguard is about to whistle, and he gets up and that second it’s thumbs down from both of us because heck-no we waiting for this disaster to continue. He’s under supervision, does not seem to be distressed at all - and there is nothing we could communicate to him earlier why would that change now. Only education we’d get out of this would maybe (MAYBE) be his reason and reasoning, and the punishment of choppy surface swim with near full tanks (which we surely deserved).

Needless to say he did not hang around for the next 50 minutes we were under. No sign of him when we surfaced.

Ben_ca
<<or just call him Fred>>

O-yech… I don’t think this one was quite that malicious at all. Reading about Freds is a good reminder that even though this is great sport and pastime there are enough psychos to go around.

 

[SDAnderson]

Being polite is good but it’s more important to be effective: polite is not better than direct, firm and honest - nor are they mutually exclusive. It’s especially important to be careful with divers that need buddies at the last minute – sometimes they’re asking you to buddy with them because nobody who knows them will dive with them.

As others have pointed out, once you were in the water with this guy, he was your buddy – if anyone turns back, everyone turns back. Any concerns about safety means that the dive is aborted and everyone returns to the safety of the boat/shore. Risking his life, your life and the lives of everyone around you (including those who might have to come rescue you) is unfair and unsafe. A couple of good reasons to never buddy with someone you aren’t comfortable with, aren't they?

Try this on for size, next time:

We like to plan our dives with everyone that is going to be on the team to make sure that each diver knows each other and so that we can all be certain that the plan takes into account everyone’s skill level and temperament. We’re sorry, but our plans for this dive don’t include adding any additional divers and you’re going to need to find another group to dive with.​

It’s actually a pretty good operational philosophy, especially for newer divers who don’t have reserves of experience and training to draw upon in the event of trouble. It’s not a crutch and it will have the added benefit of allowing you to tell the truth if you’re faced with the same circumstances in the future.

As far as turning the dive once you’re in the water, if you aren’t comfortable pointing the finger at a diver, put the blame on yourself:

I’m not feeling good about this dive and want to call it off. Let’s head back to shore.​

Remember, anybody can call the dive at any time for any reason. You should be prepared to explain yourself (though you should not have to defend yourself) once you get to safety, but putting the thumb to a dive is a no-discussion decision.

 

[galscuba]

I completely feel for you. I have dived several dives with a buddy who is very panicked just about every dive that we have done. I thought, with time, the panic level would decrease, but it didn't. I just realized that the last dive we did would be our last dive. For the first time, it hit me that I would be responsible for this person if they freaked at 60 feet and that I am not ready to take that responsibility on. Don't get me wrong, I think that when you accept to be someone's dive buddy, you are responsible for them, but when you clearly see that a person obviously is only diving for some reason other than the enjoyment of it, they are putting you and themselves at risk. We have dove probably 15 dives together (she had more logged dives than I did at the time), and I have seen the signs of stress in each of her dives that they teach you about in class. I have shown great patience and have often done very shallow and short dives to accommodate her, but her comfort level is still not even registering on any scale. Am I being impatient? Maybe inconsiderate?

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is very important to find a dive buddy with your comfort level and comparable experience. I tend to be very relaxed about everything in my life...Maybe too relaxed, but I am sure that somewhere out here in Oklahoma that there is someone else willing to be my relaxed and level-headed dive buddy! They have to be as excited about the sport as I am, though!!! I'm accepting applications, if you are interested. HA!

 

[piikki]

Galscuba:
>>... (she had more logged dives than I did at the time), and I have seen the signs of stress.... I have shown great patience .... to accommodate her... Am I being impatient? Maybe inconsiderate?<<

... nods to all oh-so familiar thought patterns... Scubaboarders acted as a good reinforcement when facing the blast of realization that this kind of ‘being nice’ just won’t work in scuba diving. It might be ok when we talk about including everyone in the post-dive beach volleyball, you know, ‘you’re in even though we’ll lose the match with you in the team’ We are just playing with different caliber issues under water.

I resonate with the relaxed attitude – I find liquid environment cozy, and if only I wasn’t a bit of a rule freak I might just be too loose for this hobby. I went against my gut because it was too hard to say NO to someone who I thought was ahead of me. I could as well see myself trapped into trying to help someone overcome their fears! That is a good example of a possible teetering point. This ‘shoulda’ –thinking will just have to end. Period. I just have to dive safely and according to my plan. And you, let someone with more experience take on the special ed case and go have a relaxed dive or two!

Thanks for the thought!

 

[Atticus]

I tend to be very relaxed about everything in my life...Maybe too relaxed, but I am sure that somewhere out here in Oklahoma that there is someone else willing to be my relaxed and level-headed dive buddy! They have to be as excited about the sport as I am, though!!! I'm accepting applications, if you are interested. HA!

Some of us who aren't in Oklahoma may be willing to travel, especially to Coz

 

[Daylonious]

If he's diving unfamiliar equipment to you and he's struggling at the surface, just lay it out as you see it.

"It's my perception that you're having some difficulty with your equipment. At the risk of offending you, I am just not comfortable being responsible for your safety in case something goes wrong. From what I'm seeing (x..y..z.. problems).. I'm very nervous. If you were in my situation, what would you think would be the best course of action? At this point, I would feel I would have to spend more time looking out for you than enjoying my dive with my wife/buddy/friend. Do you understand where I'm coming from?"

Just my 2 cents...

D.

Ok, more of our scenario… we were shore diving, on our SI… a guy approaches us asking if we have a float/flag. We say sure. He asks if we are going back in, and we say we need to burn a bit but we will. He asks a few questions of what’s there because he only dove the beach once. Then he asks could we give him a sign when we go in because he ain’t got a flag, and he’d like to go in same time. We say sure, the area will be pretty much covered by one flag. He takes a look at our bottles and remarks something like ‘good you have same tanks’, and points to a direction saying ‘we are at that picnic table so just wave to me’.

Ok, so fine. Unfortunately, when we wave him in it takes him ages, and we are in the water when we see him coming ALONE! Now we get very uncomfy immediately. I ask him if he is going to solo but he says he is going to tag along. So now we need in a hurry go thru our first threesome check… We ask his hand signs, and check his releases. We ask him how long he’s been diving, and he says he is AOW/4yrs, so basically he is way more experienced than us. But we are kneeling in about 4f of water and his bladder is about to burst with air, he can’t get his fins on and his face is going blue in too tight hood. We ask if he’s alright and he is mumbling. We are supporting him and same time notice he has this crushed neoprene drysuit. Now, we have never been diving with drysuits nor with anyone in a drysuit, so we ask how do we get that air out off him if needed. He says all his air is in the bladder, so that’s OK. He’s getting more purple, so we repeat the question about too tight hood but he shrugs it off.

At this point, I tell him our dive plan and basically taking into account that he has about 4yrs more diving than us, I just tell that if he gets bored when we are doing our drills on our two planned stops it’s kind of his problem but if he thumbs we will have to come up with him, so can he please tell us if he has a sign for just ditching. He says that’s all good. All this time both of us are screaming NONONO – but neither of us can get it said. This guy is sweating his balls off and we want to sent him back to the beach now that he has finally gotten his fins on with both of us supporting him… Gee… He is pleasant, no jerk signs but vague and at no point did he ask one question about our gear/signs/experience etc or if we ever dove in threesome.

Needless to say the dive went south, bad

 

[Jeff Toorish]

Piikki,

First, as a relative newbie, thanks for this thread. If I am ever in this situation, I will remember this and simply say "no thanks."

I oddly had a smilar experience last week. This was a dive from Hell, as well. But it was sort of the reverse. I had planned to dive with a group from my LDS. The shop owner scrubbed her dive because the vis was poor. However, I spoke with someone else from the shop and we decided to get wet. It was a shallow dive, only about 20 feet, and a shore dive.

When I went to pick up a tank, the LDS owner told me there would be another two guys there, in addition to the shop guy (an experienced diver) and myself. Great, I thought, we can either pair off, or the four of us can head out. As I was clearly the least experienced diver, I considered myself lucky.

By the end of the dive, I felt as if I was the only one who understood the real risks of SCUBA. The dive shop guy forgot to fill his own tanks, so he was going to snorkel with us and hold the dive flag. One of the other experienced divers broke his weight belt just as he splashed (normally I would have been sympathetic, but the belt should clearly have been replaced a long time ago). The other experienced diver and I decided to head toward some rocks and then come back to the dive float while the other guys fixed up some sort of weight system for Mr. Broken Belt.

The guy I was diving with, (remember he's much more expeienced) seems to have trouble gaining negative buoyancy. Before we went under, he said I should lead and he would follow (the geogrpahy of the area pretty much requires someone to be in front). I agree to that, and keep referring back to him. He disappeared in a matter of minutes. (Later he told me he kept getting beaten up by the rocks, whatever that meant.)

Anyway, this is your thread, so I won't go into any further details...but suffice to say, I sympathize with you.

It just goes to show that divers of any experience level can be a problem...and dangerous.

(I'm also a pilot, and it reminds me of the time when I was a student. Another guy was flying around the airport, in the WRONG direction. Kept giving his location and intentions, doing touch and gos. This guy had 30 years in the cockpit. Of course, everyone was trying to contact him to tell him he was landing on the wrong runway and creating a hazard. Of course, his radio wasn't receiving. So, when he lands, one of the instructors asks him, "how was your flight?" The guy says, "great!" The instructor says, "How was your radio?" The guy says, "terrific, I didn't hear anything all day!"

The instructor pulled his license and said he couldn't go up again until he did a check ride with a flight instructor.)

Dive safely

JT

 

[Atticus]

Hi JT, I'm also an avid pilot. Im a little confused by your report that the instructor "pulled his license" - while the FAA can suspend or revoke an airmans certificate I'm not familiar with any regulation which allows a CFI this privilige. Can you elaborate?

 

[stevetim]

Some people are claustrophobic, and it seems some people are scared of wide open, seemingly endless spaces. You could ask your dive buddy if this is maybe her problem?

 

[BarryNL]

DiveMe
<<Okay, but I'm still waiting to hear what the guy did after he got on shore. Come on, tell the end of the story!!>>

It’s going to very anticlimactic! We are bobbing in the chops, the guy gets up at the beach buoys, and it takes him ages to turn his face back towards the lake, so we have time to grunt a few times. We wait and finally he seems to check back, and we wave and like “wha?”. He waves, then takes his mask off, and waves the mask in the air.

Erm, I guess you were there, but to me this sounds like classic distress signals. I would be rescuing the guy at this point. If I got there and he said "Oh, I was just waving", I would drop his weights and rescue him anyway to teach him a lesson

Needless to say he did not hang around for the next 50 minutes we were under. No sign of him when we surfaced.

Erm, any sign that he ever did surface?