Explain the LDS gear situation?

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Sorry, when I said 100% markup, I meant 100% markup over LP's prices. I do not know what their actual costs are, I just know LP might sell something for 300, the LDS sells it for 600 lets say. I'm not sure what anyone's price margins are, I'm just curious how this does not even out a little more.

Now as someone mentioned, I have heard of deals with the manufacturers.. a lot of shops seem to only carry one brand of gear, seems a bit odd to me. Why wouldn't the shops just carry whatever they feel like, and if the manufacturers don't agree, then they don't carry that manufacturers gear?

I assume the manufacturers don't want the LDS out of business any more than we do.. LDS's are what bring new divers to the sport.
 
I've done quite a bit of investigation of this prior to and up to the current time (part of the stuff on my web page linked below...)

Virtually all large manufacturers and distributors in the US require a dealer to not sell below a certain specified minimum price (typically no more than 10% off "list", and in some cases at no discount at all.) This is NOT part of the dealer's agreement with the manufacturer (such agreements are per-se illegal in the US under anti-trust law) but rather is a "policy document" that "magically" appears and is imposed, unilaterally, after the dealer agreement is signed. Essentially all of these "policies" are nearly word-for-word identical.

Its not a "contract" or "agreement" to restrain pricing, and as such its a loophole in the law that is being exploited. The policy simply says that if they catch you selling at more than 10% off list (or whatever the policy price is) they will refuse to sell you more product.

This policy is doubly-damaging; not only do you as a shop get cut off from the gear you want to sell, but you also lose your access to repair parts (which they will only sell to "authorized dealers"), which means that IF you get cut off you orphan your existing customer base. That is the real threat - a shop could change brands if it got cut off, but orphaning all the divers it has sold gear to up to that point is another matter. The latter would generate so much anger, so quickly, that it would likely result in the shop failing. The longer a shop has carried a particular brand (and the more if it has been sold to local consumers) the more effective the threat becomes.

It is the combination of these two factors that tends to keep the local shops in line, but they all know this going in to the deal - the shops are hardly "dupes" or "victims" - in fact, they are willing participants. Shops have been sold this policy as "beneficial" to them in that it keeps Joe in the next town from competing with them on price.

In reality what it does is drive a good part of the customer base online - now NEITHER Joe NOR Jack get the sale! Worse, it drives some of the traffic out of the store (many people don't even bother looking any more, knownig that the online price won't be beaten or even approached within reason), and you can't sell someone product without the traffic.

Second, don't believe for a second that LeisurePro sells at cost, or at 5% over cost, or any such nonsense, as is almost always claimed by the dive shop folks on this board.

They do not.

I have been able to verify distribution prices on close to a hundred items they sell, in small (under 20) quantities, and every last one of them carries a mark-up of at least 20%, and in many cases 30% or more, over small-quantity wholesale. As just one example look at their Pelican box pricing; they're marking those up quite nicely.

So the situation is really much worse than the shops would have you believe. They all claim LP is selling "below cost", when in fact they are not.

Finally, LP does have a showroom. They are also located in one of the most punitive, and highest-cost, places to run a business in the United States - New York City proper. They also have staff, pay employment taxes, etc, and in fact, they are quite "nice" to their staff - the company is owned by Orthodox Jews, and they really DO honor the Jewish work week restrictions (they are CLOSED on Saturdays, orders entered Friday will ship Monday, they have more holiday time off than your local shop does, etc.)
 
I agree with Genisis. LP staff is very nice and professional. im fortunate enough to work nearby and visit as needed. For many people they are an lds. they offer lessons and dive trips like other lds's. they have many loyal local customers who they treat just as well as any small town dive shop. i understand that many people dont like them because they buy grey market items and dont offer the manufactures warranties. this may be new to many of you but is common with many things. cameras the most obvious. i mention this because lp is affiliated with the camera store downstairs that has similiar greymarket practices. they make no secret about it and are operating within the law. if you dont like them, dont shop there or figure out a way to compete. many shops within a few miles of lp can and do. so i imagine shops outside the tristate area can also. my main point however is that to many of us in the city it is a lds who has gone national with a good product and service. but we are used to that. macy's, sach's, bloomingdales etc.
 
Hallmac once bubbled...
It is called fair pricing agreements between the dealer and the manufacture. To be an authorized dealer in the US the shop must to agree not to sell an item below a certain percentage of suggested retail price set by the manufacture.

It is was originally designed to prevent companies with hugh buying power from putting the little mom and pop shops out of business.

As I understand it this practice is not supported in other countries and with the world getting smaller and shipping from other countries becomming cheaper and easier to import the larger companies have found a way around it.

closest I can get to it. Hope it helps.

Hallmac

Hallmac's response, I think, shows perfectly what complete and utter BS the industry's position is on their vertical price fixing practices. Hallmac, what you described is a felony. Nevertheless, it is precisely the understanding that I'll bet the LDS has of the arrangement. They see it as their agreement. I've seen on other lists where some LDS guys have said so, and regarded it as unethical of a shop to sell below the manufacturer's fixed price. The manufacturer's representative's position -- at least once the rep's been properly woodshedded by a lawyer -- is that it is the manufacturer's unilateral policy, and they just want the dealer to know what it is so they don't displease the manufacturer, since the manufacturer can terminate them if displeased.

What rubbish. It's an agreement in substance. If an LDS becomes a ScubaPro dealer, for example, and pays tens of thousands of dollars for an initial buy in of inventory, and knows that if he prices below ScubaPro's fixed price he gets cut off, can't get more of the product he's been pimping, can't get parts, can't service the customers he's already sold, then you can better believe that both the LDS and ScubaPro firmly believe they've got an agreement on price.

It is my hope that one of these days the DOJ or some state's AG will grow a pair and challenge this sophistry for what it is. In Europe, this practice is not tolerated, and dealers compete with each other on price. Back when I got my regulator, I paid just over half of the fixed price in the US, and yes, it was through authorized distribution channels, not grey market.
 
Question. How do the online shops get their gear from the manufacturers? How do they get around the restrictions that are placed upon the LDS's?
 
Ceberon once bubbled...
Question. How do the online shops get their gear from the manufacturers? How do they get around the restrictions that are placed upon the LDS's?


Phone rings at small Scubapro dealer, it's Dave from Leisure Pro & he'd like to do a little business. He want to buy a few Mk25/S600's, the one that MSRP for $522.00 at every Scubapro LDS. Let's talk about 1000 units. (Actual story was smaller qty & greater selection for same $$ from the SP line but this makes it a bit easier) In smaller quantities like most LDSs must deal with, the wholesale price is around $355.00 (my guess but not far off). If the annual buy has a larger dollar figure, additional wholesale discounts are provided in the amout of 10, 20, or 30% depending on the total bottom line. Buying 1000 units gets the maximum discount so we are lookin at $250.00 each for a total buy of $250,000.00. And for your trouble, we'll give you 10% plus shipping. So the LDS makes $25,000.00 profit. Not a bad way to make a little extra on the side. So LP then payed about $280 per, marks it up about 25% and sells it online for $349.95 (check the website). Scubapro says they really would like to stop that but if they stopped just this one, that's $250,000.00 less black ink on their balance sheet. And LP would just tell the customer they are out of stock and suggest the Apeks ATX100 as a substitute. But doesn't the distributer get suspicious? Probably, but you don't do the whole order at once. You spread it out over the year so it's not quite so obvious. And, as with the mfgr, does the distributer really want to lose his share of this deal?

Bottom line: The small LDS that rejects such an offer buys Mk25/S600's from SP for $355.00 each while LP is selling it for $350.00. SP makes it's profit and maintains a presense in all popular market outlets. The SP distributer doesn't have to sell his house to the Apeks distributer and move into something more affordable. And finally, the participating LDS owner makes a nice profit from LP so he can continue doing what he likes. And as an added benefit, he gets his own wholesale stock at 30% off and can afford to sell at a price that is competative with LP to his customers that have wised up. What about the "agreement"? How does LDS match LP price? A number of ways. Go for packages. SP regs & SQ BC for a package price equal to the total LP price. Receipt is for the package so agreement is not compromised. Or air cards and service discounts. Or maybe one set of receipts for the tax collector (the real ones) and another for the manufacturer. Life is Good.
 
wrongkey once bubbled...


Hallmac's response, I think, shows perfectly what complete and utter BS the industry's position is on their vertical price fixing practices. Hallmac, what you described is a felony. Nevertheless, it is precisely the understanding that I'll bet the LDS has of the arrangement. They see it as their agreement.

I fully agree it is wrong. As to a felony I'm not aware of the law that forbids it, of course can't say I have ever investigated corporate law. Since a corporation can't be place in confinement It would take several large fines to cure the problem.

Better send that one to a corporate attorney thats hungry for money.

I just know that is what is in place. That and forced stock amounts to maintain dealership. "Manufacture Name left out for a reason"is good for that one, big time. I like their products but shop friendly they are not. To maintain their Authorized Dealer Status you must sell a certain amount of their product every year, if not you must buy it. fail to sell it or buy it and you can't get parts or replacements until you do!.

Heck that is only part of the leverage the manufactures place on the LDS.

Hallmac
 
This has been interesting so far. Never realized quite how it works. Thanks for the info so far.
 

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