fins, fins so many fins.

[LakeCountyDiver]

IMO there is nothing wrong with splits.

Yes your right that is YOUR opinion.

My opinion is that splits suck and are not good at carrying heavy loads like towing a diver, not quick anyway. Splits have there uses but very few of them.

 

[klauricella]

Split fins "tend to buckle under a heavy load when you are kicking hard" is complete BS. A myth. It is a matter of kick method. Kicking hard and wide may feel real good with a stiff fin, like the exhaust sound in a Harley. The reality is that if a split fin is kicked with a flutter kick in the slipstream of the body it will perform well without fatigue.

We actually produce a bio-fin XT model, noticeably stiffer than our original bio-fin pro, so that those who like to feel resistance, and all that can have it. Interestingly enough our military sales are always the original bio-fin pro.

The real deal guys don't care about brand names or whatever kick is the kick of the week. They are seeking the best performance with the least resistance.

Of course this fin thread will continue with the usual perps posting.

All we know is that DOD continues to purchase and I do not think that they are monitoring SB-they are just taking care of those who take care of us.

So what you are saying is I suck because I do not use your product? Or that I should use your product because the Navy seals that are 25 and in peak physical condition use them. It is amazing when manufacturers come on and bash people for not using their product. If you want my business give me real world info not that the Navy seals use something. I want to know what makes a difference for the middle age fat guy that smokes two packs a day. You kind of lost me as a future customer and any thought of split fins is gone if that is your only argument.

Thanks
Kevin

 

[Lobzilla]

Yes your right that is YOUR opinion.

My opinion is that splits suck and are not good at carrying heavy loads like towing a diver, not quick anyway. Splits have there uses but very few of them.

+1

That split fins are are a poor choice for a rescue scenario is not just an opinion - it is also a physical fact.

Split fins are designed to flex so that people with bad knees and/or poor technique 'feel fine'. When you rescue another diver 'feeling fine' is not the point - moving efficiently is.

We move forward by moving water backwards. If you want to do that, what would be the better choice? Something flimsy that 'gives' or something that provides 'traction' in the water? Learn to correctly use a Jet, Turtle, or Hollis f1 and you will never look back.

I let the water speak for itself. See how easy and beautiful diving can be if you use the right technique and the right tools.

[EMBED][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ziZonJe6o&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL]YouTube -Ambient Culture[/EMBED][/URL]

Watch how these divers move gracefully with very little effort - forward, backwards, any way they want. (At 5:01 you see a 'kick' that you would most likely use for long surface tows if you are the only rescuer. You need 'traction' for that.)

 

[danvolker]

So what you are saying is I suck because I do not use your product? Or that I should use your product because the Navy seals that are 25 and in peak physical condition use them. It is amazing when manufacturers come on and bash people for not using their product. If you want my business give me real world info not that the Navy seals use something. I want to know what makes a difference for the middle age fat guy that smokes two packs a day. You kind of lost me as a future customer and any thought of split fins is gone if that is your only argument.

Thanks
Kevin

Kevin,
One thing that strikes me about what the military might actually be looking for....a completely different idea of what a fin should do...
think about this.....a combat group needs to be dropped out of a helicopter....right off the bat, they could be wearing splits or force fins as they jump off the chopper or parachute from a plane....they could not do this with freediving fins

Next, they will often need to swim covertly for MANY MILES prior to reaching shore....when they hit shore, technically speaking, THAT is when their real exertion begins, as they will be running and operating at max capacity, for their very survival. They CAN NOT have tired legs after 3 hours of swimming 3 to 5 miles. These guys are serious aerobic athletes, so IF they run high kick cycle ( fast cadence) flutter kicks with a very soft split or force fins concept blade, they will be working their heart and cardio system, leaving their leg muscles fresh and full of muscle glycogen.
In contrast, recreational and even tech divers DO NOT plan on doing 3 hour swims where the real exertion BEGINS after the 3 hour swim...Also, our idea is more about low heart rate ( remember, theirs is to run a high heart rate to eliminate leg muscle workload) .... with my Dive R freedive fins, I could swim in 3 miles and maintain a very low resting heart rate, but on reaching shore, my legs would have been exercised far more than my heart. I would not be desiring to do a 5 mile run for my life.
I think this is a key difference that has never really been addressed--for years it has been-- "hey, the Navy Seals use these____"..but that is not really a plus for our purpose in choosing fins.

 

[klauricella]

Kevin,
One thing that strikes me about what the military might actually be looking for....a completely different idea of what a fin should do...
think about this.....a combat group needs to be dropped out of a helicopter....right off the bat, they could be wearing splits or force fins as they jump off the chopper or parachute from a plane....they could not do this with freediving fins

Next, they will often need to swim covertly for MANY MILES prior to reaching shore....when they hit shore, technically speaking, THAT is when their real exertion begins, as they will be running and operating at max capacity, for their very survival. They CAN NOT have tired legs after 3 hours of swimming 3 to 5 miles. These guys are serious aerobic athletes, so IF they run high kick cycle ( fast cadence) flutter kicks with a very soft split or force fins concept blade, they will be working their heart and cardio system, leaving their leg muscles fresh and full of muscle glycogen.
In contrast, recreational and even tech divers DO NOT plan on doing 3 hour swims where the real exertion BEGINS after the 3 hour swim...Also, our idea is more about low heart rate ( remember, theirs is to run a high heart rate to eliminate leg muscle workload) .... with my Dive R freedive fins, I could swim in 3 miles and maintain a very low resting heart rate, but on reaching shore, my legs would have been exercised far more than my heart. I would not be desiring to do a 5 mile run for my life.
I think this is a key difference that has never really been addressed--for years it has been-- "hey, the Navy Seals use these____"..but that is not really a plus for our purpose in choosing fins.

I agree with you but also freediving fins are not the best answer for most people. I have a pair and have used them for diving but did not work for me, too long and to much work. Where we dive we are not going for speed but need the low end grunt of a stiff short fin like the jetfins. I think freediving fins will give you more speed but you need the legs to push them again for towing a second person not ideal. Kind of like comparing a truck to a Corvette (splits would be a Subaru?)

Thanks
Kevin

 

[danvolker]

Kevin,
I know you are absolutely correct for the MAJORITY of freedivng fins....One of the really unfortunate things that has occurred in the last 20 years, is that the few dive shops that do stock freedive fins, stock a very small diversity of these freediving fins, ignoring the enormous range that really does exist between models.
Unlike scuba fins, MANY freedive fin manufacturers actually make multiple stiffnesses in their fins--multiple models, to fit the "needs" of their customer base.
One of the first that did this was Esclapez, back in the early 90's I think....they did this for two reasons:

1. many of their customers would have days when they would spearfish deep for an hour or two, and days where they were in a competition for 6 to 8 hours of swimming---for 60 to 100 foot drops in an hour or 2, stiffer freedive fins were more optimal...for 6 to 8 hours of shallower use, very soft blades allowed the legs to handle this much better.
2. new freedivers ( or scuba divers just getting freedive fins for the first time) need a soft blade in order to gradually develop the muscles, tendons and coordination to get as good as they can---and ultimately be able to move on to stiffer bladed models as they evolve their finning abilities with freedive fins. After years of using freedive fins, many will have moved to the stiffest models--which to them would then NOT feel stiff at all!!! What they do at this point of neuromuscular development, is feel like a huge hand is pushing you forward afer each kick thrust--rather than feeling like you are kicking with spaghetti noodles on your feet
3. Stores that cater to scuba divers will not normally carry this kind of choice, and usually will only sell fairly stiff models with the old plastic blades --low technology, poor use of leg power compared to the new composites or carbon fiber.
4. Freedive shops on ther other hand, carry a wide range of fins and stiffnesses. This is where you could see fins like the DiveR Freedive fins that I doubt you will find in ANY scuba shop, anywhere in the US. The DiveR freedive fins use a composite material at least as good as carbon fiber in giving you that "push" after each kick, and unlike carbon, they are not so fragile ( like the Mustang C4's..fast, but can't be giant strided with ) .... see https://www.flfreedivers.com/store/index.php?cPath=218_216&osCsid=e6qllcten9r3v4eevn7no21iq2 This shop in palm Beach is fantastic for gear you would want to use for scuba, but can not find in scuba shops!!!

 

[Dehydrated_Atom]

because the Navy seals that are 25 and in peak physical condition use them. It is amazing when manufacturers come on and bash people for not using their product.

If he was saying any form of Navy use them, he's not being honest. Both Navy and Marine Corps. use the old style SP Jet Fins in operations. Some operators use split fins as a personal preference, but it's not what the Navy gives them.

 

[knotical]

...freediving fins... enormous range that really does exist between models...

Hi Dan,

I'm working from ignorance here, so if my questions seem naive, please be kind.
How are free-diving fins for some of the other things scuba divers like to do, such as backing up, turning in place ("helicopter"), and cruising near the bottom without disturbing sediment?
What are techniques for accomplishing such things?
Are some free-dive fins better than others these purposes?

thanks,

k

 

[mdb]

I want to know what makes a difference for the middle age fat guy that smokes two packs a day.
Kevin

Well I don't think any fin will make much of a difference if you are a "middle age fat guy smoking two packs a day."

Good to know that you still can dive, no matter what fins you are diving with.

 

[klauricella]

Well I don't think any fin will make much of a difference if you are a "middle age fat guy smoking two packs a day."

Good to know that you still can dive, no matter what fins you are diving with.

Thanks good to know your products are only designed to people in perfect fitness. If your fins are any good that is where you would see the difference. Just for the record I will bet a lot of money that there is a lot of fat middle age guys that can dive circles around a lot of younger fitter guys.

Thanks
Kevin