Graduated license???

[Bill51]

They have one. Require a checkout dive.

In all of the books I have read involving diving the Andrea Doria, there has been a process of diving a less challenging wreck first. The times when the process has been ignored often involve an incident.

That is the way.

I agree to the check out dive to some extent. It’s just that I think some operators could use a little guidance in how and when to use them – they are dive operators, not curriculum designers and lawyers. Some standardized guidelines and standards could protect the operators as well as assist them in setting dive site-specific standards.

For example, if I show up for a day to dive the Grove with a logbook showing 15 penetration dives to 200’ in the past month, I don’t want to spend half my time demonstrating mask clearing to a 50 dive DM. On the other hand the operator doesn’t want to get charged with some crazy discrimination suit or complaint because he requires a 20 dive OW diver to do a checkout dive.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Good point Bill. I does start to get complicated.

 

[Don Burke]

Ya mean like this? Yes I agree.

The problem with logbooks is the credibility of the book itself.

Want a logbook showing experience? Tell me what name you want it under and what you want the book to show and I will have it to you in an hour.

Logbooks have a problem similar to certification cards. You are betting on the individual who produced the document.

I do not see the advantage of a logbook I do not trust over a certification card neither of us trust.

 

[Don Burke]

I agree to the check out dive to some extent. It’s just that I think some operators could use a little guidance in how and when to use them – they are dive operators, not curriculum designers and lawyers. Some standardized guidelines and standards could protect the operators as well as assist them in setting dive site-specific standards.

For example, if I show up for a day to dive the Grove with a logbook showing 15 penetration dives to 200’ in the past month, I don’t want to spend half my time demonstrating mask clearing to a 50 dive DM. On the other hand the operator doesn’t want to get charged with some crazy discrimination suit or complaint because he requires a 20 dive OW diver to do a checkout dive.

Complex it is.

If you do not want to demonstrate your skills on a dive day, go on an earlier checkout dive. I certainly would not believe a logbook from someone I never met.

The only answer I could possibly come up with is a certification from an independent examiner. There are examples of such things in various industries. Getting it to work in SCUBA could be tricky with all the warring factions.

 

[wolf eel]

Don Burke Complex it is.

If you do not want to demonstrate your skills on a dive day, go on an earlier checkout dive.

This is what i met by Big Bro. The question is do we want a group that takes you out to re-cert you on dives and they become responsible to the boat operators ?.

What I mean is do you really want a Provincial body looking at your diving and checking that you can do the dives you say. That is what the WCB commercial diving stuff is all about and it is just that, "****". The instructors and useless and the course outline is even worse but it is mandatory to have taken the course to be able to dive a fish farm and do lite commercial work. All they are doing is check out dives, it costs you about 5 grand. Is the cost worth the course, hardly but they needed away to do check out dives. Thats what you are all asking for in the end and it will not be pretty and the diving industry will be hurt by it hugly.

No fault responsibility to the boat operators is the only way to go. So you best not lie.

 

[Diver Dennis]

This is what i met by Big Bro. The question is do we want a group that takes you out to re-cert you on dives and they become responsible to the boat operators ?.
What I mean is do you really want a Provincial body looking at your diving and checking that you can do the dives you say. That is what the WCB commercial diving crap is all about and it is just that crap. The instructors and useless and the course outline is even worse but it is mandatory to have take the course to be able to dive a fish farm and do lite commercial work. All they are doing is check out dives it costs you about 5 grand is the cost worth the course hardly but they needed to be able to do check out dives. Thats what you are all asking for in the end and it will not be pretty and the diving industry will be hurt by hugly.

No fault responsibility to the boat operators is the only way to go. So you best not lie.

The checkout dives I, and I think the others, was talking about would have no government involvement. You would just go out with an instructor or DM from the dive shop to show them you are competant enough to handle the conditions in the area. There are advanced dives at many dive locations and some operators won't let you dive them until they see you on an easier dive.

 

[Don Burke]

What I mean is do you really want a Provincial body looking at your diving and checking that you can do the dives you say.

Nope.

A government agency is possibly the worst way to go with this.

Just look at who DMV puts on the road.

 

[Bill51]

Nope.

A government agency is possibly the worst way to go with this.

Just look at who DMV puts on the road.

On the other hand a large majority of pilot’s licenses are issued by FAA approved Designated Examiners and that works pretty well – not that I’m advocating ANY government involvement, but the agencies could offer some kind of backup to the shops certification.

Let me add that I’ve seen very few problems with certification from established shops, the major problems I’ve run across have been from people certified by an independent instructor with no vested interest in a long term relationship with the diver.

 

[Dion]

Ok I just have to put in my .02 on this subject. The main problem is that the more "popular" anything becomes, the more idiots become involved and that is why it is only going to get worse. As much as I love scuba diving, I hate that it is becoming popular and that it is so easy to get certified for this very reason. I think that if you don't love it enough to suffer a little bit for the privilege, you won't really appreciate it.

And its not just diving, its anything, teach people some basic skills, give them a test and ta-da they don't have to worry about being responsible anymore because they are "certified" and if anything bad happens, they can blame it on the person that certified them. (Just look around the next time you are driving.) I swear, I think there are people in our society today who don't care if they get hurt or die, as long as they can say that it was someone else's fault.

My personal opinion is that its *my* responsibility to keep myself alive while diving. I am the one who must learn the skills, stay within my skill level, take care of my equipment and pay attention to the proper things while diving. Nobody can do that for you and if you don't understand that, you won't be around very long. (I also consider it my duty to the other divers to have the diving skills to leave the reef in the condition that I found it, but that's another rant. <g>)

Ok I hope this isn't too messed up, I keep getting interrupted.

Dion

 

[Diver Dennis]

This could really be kept at dive shop level. The dive shop could just require divers to do an easy dive first and then make the call whether they have enough skill to handle a more advanced dive. If not, they would have to keep doing the easier dives. The problem would come with having all the dive ops comply. It would just take one to waive this requirment to upset the whole procedure.