GUE and Sidemount?

[Razorista]

The important stuff is completely standardized: Each tank has a reg. Find the tank you want and breathe it.

Which part of it?

hoses? - standardized for GUE education, but almost nowhere in sidemount
valves? - at least three different and incompatible solutions for sidemount, only a single setup is accepted DIR-style

bungees and tank attachment? - different for almost every system and user

emergency procedures? - don't let me start on that...

 

[TSandM]

Honestly, (and this is my personal opinion now, and not any attempt to speak for GUE), my personal experience with sidemount has convinced me that backmount is an easier approach if you are going to do a wide variety of diving. I can throw on a set of Al80 doubles and cruise reefs in the Red Sea, or do a 3 hour dive in a cave in MX, or I can put on a set of HP100s and do just about any dive I would contemplate in Puget Sound, and it all works. In addition, the transition from single tank backmount to double tank backmount is extremely simple. Although people do dive single tank sidemount, I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense compared with the standard backmount setup (whereas I can see the arguments for both types of configurations with double tanks).

For me, it is immeasurably easier to walk in backmounted doubles than in sidemounted tanks, and many shore diving sites aren't very friendly to tank-donning in the water. People have reported problems with narrow gates for water entry off boats (I have never sidemounted off a boat, and probably won't).

There are, of course, the arguments, that manifolded doubles give you access to all your gas in the event of a failure downstream of the valve (to which the sidemount folks will always retort that it permits the LOSS of all of your gas, as well). Backmount permits the automatic donation of the breathed regulator, whereas sidemount, depending on configuration, may require the diver to remember which reg he is breathing, and donate a clipped off regulator. Backmount is pretty simple -- harness adjustment is pretty standard, and you just weight the tanks for balance. Sidemount is much more idiosyncratic, and the placement of weights and bands varies from person to person and tank to tank.

I guess that's the key. Sidemount is idiosyncratic, and if you are trying to design a highly standardized system, you want to use things which are very easily standardized.

 

[Razorista]

I did not know anything about diving during the time BP/W systems and jackets where first developed.
But I assume the situation was not different in any important way then.

There would have been several alternative ways to standardize in backmount and there where and are probably hundreds of modifications and personal touches GUE and DIR would not approve of.
The point of DIR was to get rid of those, more or less, but after decades there are still dissenters left and their ideas are still as contagious to beginning divers as they have always been.

Sidemount however has simply not reached that stage yet.

Irritatingly not even standards used for independent doubles are actively used or even read-up and adapted by many sidemount divers.
The 'big names' leading the development all seem to tolerate diving organizations indiscriminately, but only openly associate with them when sidemount is not directly concerned.

At the moment sidemount and most sidemounters and even many instructors seem to be actively fighting any attempt at standardization.

Shows how new the modern way of sidemount diving really is despise having existed in secret for decades.

Sidemount will probably always avoid the dead ends that have developed in backmount diving over the years, but I seriously doubt it.

Someone big-headed and big-shouldered will come along someday and dictate the way we use it to us.
GUE developing it's own program would probably be a big step in that direction...

 

[flots am]

Which part of it?

hoses? - standardized for GUE education, but almost nowhere in sidemount
valves? - at least three different and incompatible solutions for sidemount, only a single setup is accepted DIR-style

bungees and tank attachment? - different for almost every system and user

emergency procedures? - don't let me start on that...

Each tank has a reg.

The OOA diver takes/is given one of the regs and breathes it. Not complicated.

If you're looking for a DIR-level rigidity, it's not there, however there also doesn't appear to be a need or demand for it either.

flots.

 

[Razorista]

...however there also doesn't appear to be a need or demand for it either.

That's what I was saying, but do you really think that would be adequate for GUE?

I still think GUE training will introduce some of the rigidity sidemount has been able to avoid so far.
However, since this is not my area of expertise in any way, I think I will just shut up ;-)

 

[Subcooled]

Lots of good points in the above discussion. Their validity however depends on the chosen values and goals such as profit, safety, diversity, freedom, standardization, portability, and possibly many other goals...

The history of warfare/mankind has shown us that freedom is sometimes valued over safety. Biodiversity is preferred over biostandardization (monoculture). We thus cannot name any one goal that would be the superior goal.

On standards:

Gue has a standard for bm doubles that works for them. The french have another standard for backmounted doubles. Side mount diving is standardized as well: Padi has a standard for sidemount and Utd has another standard for side mount. The british have a third one.

Just pick a suitable standard for your team and let the others be.

If we want one world wide standard then I suggest we start with the standardization of religion. Biggest gain there

 

[Dhboner]

I can only speak for myself so that is all I will attempt to do I could never execute a shutdown in backmount (too many mountain bike crashes over the years). In sidemount I can manipulate both valves and feather them if need be to use the air in a tank with a free flowing regulator. I can bring my HP100's down to the water's edge, one at a time, if I choose and attach them in water. If I boat dive I can sit on the bench, attach my tanks and get into and out of the water as easy, if not easier, than in backmount. I can climb a ladder much easier in sidemount than I ever could in backmount too. In the event of an out of air I donate the long hose exactly as in backmount...if I am breathing it I switch to my bungee'd reg and if I am breathing my bungee'd reg I unclip the long hose and donate it...if I can't unclip it fast enough the bolt snap is secured with an o-ring so I simply would "tear" it off...no delay. I really don't see THAT much difference and I am still not sure why GUE has an issue with sidemount as an option for open-circuit, open-water scuba. But then again it is their choice and I respect their right to standardization even if the worlds most experienced divers, operating in the world's most unforgiving environments choose sidemount

 

[00wabbit]

I can only speak for myself so that is all I will attempt to do I could never execute a shutdown in backmount (too many mountain bike crashes over the years). In sidemount I can manipulate both valves and feather them if need be to use the air in a tank with a free flowing regulator. I can bring my HP100's down to the water's edge, one at a time, if I choose and attach them in water. If I boat dive I can sit on the bench, attach my tanks and get into and out of the water as easy, if not easier, than in backmount. I can climb a ladder much easier in sidemount than I ever could in backmount too. In the event of an out of air I donate the long hose exactly as in backmount...if I am breathing it I switch to my bungee'd reg and if I am breathing my bungee'd reg I unclip the long hose and donate it...if I can't unclip it fast enough the bolt snap is secured with an o-ring so I simply would "tear" it off...no delay. I really don't see THAT much difference and I am still not sure why GUE has an issue with sidemount as an option for open-circuit, open-water scuba. But then again it is their choice and I respect their right to standardization even if the worlds most experienced divers, operating in the world's most unforgiving environments choose sidemount

With regards to the break away o-ring. I dive that as well but I think I'm going to give this a try. Don't have to worry about that o-ring giving out eventually and you can actually practice real time donating. Not sure how the clipping off to the chest d-ring will go but I'll see.

How-to Secure a sidemount 2nd stage breakaway clip | Divebritain Portal

 

[Dhboner]

Thought about that method but won't work well with my second stages. I have deployed the long hose on training dives by snapping off the o-ring and there is no delay.