Help! Advice needed on buying "gray market"

[metridium]

undah20 wrote...

Without your LDS, you wont be diving. Because if you so ignorant or (qualify your purchase as screw the LDS if they wont do what I want) that you put off your diving to save a buck or two, then you are probably too cheap to go out and buy an expensive compressor to fill your tanks when the LDS goes out of business for lack of support.

Two words for you: vacation divers

 

[undah20]

awap, I don't know how much it really matters? Does it? But since you asked...

My dives are well into 4 figures (though when you reach a certain point, touting the number is for ego, not conseqence) I have more ice dives than some people have dives, shallow dives, deep, dry suit, no suit, rebreather, OC, good dives, bad dives, bla, bla, bla....

I'm factory trained as a techician and/or pro technician (depending on levels avail from manufacturers) to be able to teach other technicians how to work on regs, bcds, and some computers. I know the original manufactures of most of the gear most put on by brand name only. I know many of the Engineers by first name basis for some of the equipment many people are diving with.

In the past, I've worked at a dive shop, and beyond what most people think, there is no money in it, you do it because you love the sport/lifestyle and want to see others happy doing it also. Want to make money, don't use diving as a vocation. (And those who don't know from experiece should think LDS' are out there making oodles of money off them.)

I support my local dive stores, as the good ones don't steer ANYONE wrong. Those who tout all or nothing about ripping on LDS' simply need to move past their aggression and passion for revenge to a store who's honest and helpful. Even shipping stuff back and forth if distance is an issue. Gray market doesn't give a crap about you, the guy down the street cares about his/her community. Everyone is in business, it's just that teh LDS owner cares whether your little Johnny or Julie dies int he backyard pool or not. Does anyone really think that the gray market really gives a rip if that happens? Yeah, right, if the scuba market dried up, they'd go peddle something, somewhere else - cheap as they could no doubt.

What do you do for a living? Do you provide good service, pay insurance, work with people and their fears, anxieties, hopes and dreams? Do you work on their life support gear, provide them with quality tools to ge the job done? Do you offer safety and fun as part of what you try to do, day in, day out? If you have a bad day at work, will someone's life depend upon it? Are you trying your best to turn others onto a great lifetyle where they can escape the worries of the world? Do you make a difference in other people's lives every day? Do you teach anyone, anything? Do you take a risk with YOUR money to provide all these things in hopes that your hard work will come back with respect, admoration, smiles and accomplishments, as well as financial means to keep it going and do more with it?

That's what LDS' should, and most are, trying to do for those who come in looking for someone to TRUST their investments, safety, and fun with!

When's the last time you could go into half the places you spend money at and shoot the breeze with someone about the fun you enjoy together? The person behind the counter at Wal Mart doesn't really give a rip, and neither does teh gray market. Nor do they pay attention to what changes influence their customers and if they are good or bad. They care about selling volume. Why even put your name down....and lastly, when's the last time the gray market asked to see your C-card? oops, they probably forgot or should when 'Johnny' ends up face down in the pool after using Daddy's credit card.

C-card:

Local Dive Store definition; Scuba Diving Training Certification Card
Gray Market/LP Definition: Credit Card

It's not difficult to find good LDS', just go out and visit them and call around. Ask for prrof of training. The better shops will rise to the occasion and you can have great service and should have no problem giving you an estimate before the work is done.

....and besides, I always gave 'em a reach around when I was done servicing them! :wacko:

 

[GearHead]

awap once bubbled...
So where is your LDS? You don't say much in your profile.

My guess: He *is* his LDS. Employee, owner, or DM, but based on the "personal" tone of his message, I'm guessing owner.

undah20 once blathered...
So, think you save $100- to whatever amount of savings you think is so great - and those saving are wiped out the first moment you start to pay for parts...

So, undah20, is this how you hope to protect your market share? Fear Tactics? The members of this board are here because we do the research before making major purchases, and don't blindly take recommendations from unscrupulous dive shop personnel trying to sell junk gear that needs to be replaced every few years. This doesn't apply to *all* dive shops, but there are plenty.

And, by the way undah20, when a diver buys a top-line reg from LP or SimplyScuba, we don't save a hundred bucks, we save more like SIX HUNDRED. That's a hell of a difference, and yes, it will pay for a lot of service and parts.

Since you brought it up, please do answer this question: Can you give me one example of a top-line reg in the last five years, or heck, the last ten years that has had parts "become obsolete" causing the LDS to provide free brand new regs to their customers??? I seriously doubt it, but I'll be waiting for your response with baited breath.

PS. For anyone who has an LDS like Uncle Pug's, Leisure Pro also offers very reasonably priced service and parts on gear that was NOT purchased from them.

 

[redacted]

I ask because I find a board member's perspective on LP and LDS tends to be strongly effected by their income producing relationships with the Scuba retail industry. So, when I listen to someone's advice or recommendations, I like to understand if they may have financial motives for what they say or do. With few exceptions, the real horror stories related to LP seem to come from folks who have a financial relationship with an LDS. Hopefully that is because their source of information is so much greater in that case. Somewhat surprisingly, most folks on this board seem to have mostly good things to say about LP. Your story may well be the most critical thing I have heard about LP on this board recently.

I'm not trying to defend LP service - I suspect its service can be just as bad as some LDSs. And I'm sure that there are some great LDSs out there as well as many good one. I have found some good ones. Unfortunately, I have also found some pretty bad ones.

My profile should answer some of your questions. If you are not being rhetorical with other questions, let me know & I will be happy to respond.

 

[GearHead]

OK, undah20, so you're not an LDS owner. My assertion was wrong. I would still appreciate an answer to my question above.

 

[DutchDown]

Undah, did you really e-bay a regulator which you knew was damaged and couldn't be serviced, or did I mis-read your post?

 

[redacted]

DutchDown once bubbled...
Undah, did you really e-bay a regulator which you knew was damaged and couldn't be serviced, or did I mis-read your post?

I read that as a reg he was servicing that belonged to someone else, not something he ebayed. But I had to read it twice.

 

[undah20]

I can give a vague reply to your questions Gearhead. My suggestion is to look at the Apex/AquaLung/Sea Quest issues. Having a USD second stage housing crack, and since Apex is now in control, that housing is obsolete. Dacor recently had a large trade in on older regs as manufacturing had changed and previous lines are being phased out. I guess if most of the people on the board were looking to spend their hard earned money on a great regulator, they don't want to have to do that often. Many tout that they've used their regs for decades. why should they have to be forced to buy something new, irregardless of age if there's a warranty to back it?

If the poor performing technician out there, say at LP for example, had cranked your hose fitting to tightly to your second stage and the next time you get it serviced, too much torque required to break it free caused the housing to crack, then what? If it's the LDS, they can have it replaced for free. I've seen many instances where accidents can happen, someone drops it, whatever, etc. And good manufacturers back their LDS' and will replace it out AT NO CHARGE whether it was a technician's accident or a diver's. Regardless if it's 1, 2, 3, 4, or 15 years old. Is LP going to do that? No. No gray market would, they have no line on all the parts or upgrades. They're there to sell, not service.

If you call LP and ask them that you need a new hosuing for the Scubapro MK15 first stage (still sold less than 5 years ago by them - hell, they were selling MK10's 3 yrs ago) because of a noice in the bushing system, THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HELP YOU. (nice purchase from them then??) What do you do, buy another reg from them....come on 7....role them dice!

So if it's serviced once a year, and the reg is getting the latest in performance parts and a good technician does quality work, then the chances of problems popping up unexpectedly are lowered. Why wouldn't you service your regs once a year? The componenets inside and out deteriorate. If you were given a guarantee that should any component look to need replacement, and it would be free, why wouldn't you service it or purchase that kind of backing? Why would anyone want to dive on regs that weren't serviced regularly? Why would you want to be more of a liability to yourself and others simply for the fact that you don't have them serviced regularly? That doesn't make sense nor is it being constructive or safe.

So, if you pay say around $35-45 a year (that's what is charged at 6 LDS in the area) and have every component broken down to it's bare essentials, all inspected, cleaned, replaced if necessary and upgraded upon every avail. to do so, put together good or better than new, AND ALL AT NO EXTRA CHARGE, then why wouldn't you?

You are gaining the benefit of having the latest technology and you wouldn't be jealous of new innovations as you would already have it. You could own the same, one time purchase for decades and only do preventive maintenance - as you would with the rest of your gear.

If a car manufacturer offered the performance of a Porche, at a really reasonable price (most manufacturer's now have pretty low prices on regs) and offered you free parts for life, free upgrades, and guarantee's against obsolete items, all for the cost of doing an annual checkup, people would jump at the chance. There's not a lot of difference...but I'm, sure some out there would think they could still forego that benefit to save some money?

It still comes down to getting the service (the whole service like safety, training, etc) AND benefits of the warranties, that outweights the arguments against, for me.

 

[undah20]

And awap, yes, I'm being rhetorical.

 

[metridium]

undah20 wrote...
I can give a vague reply to your questions Gearhead. My suggestion is to look at the Apex/AquaLung/Sea Quest issues. Having a USD second stage housing crack, and since Apex is now in control, that housing is obsolete.

Apex in control? Apeks didn't buy Aqualung; try the other way 'round.

undah20 wrote...
If the poor performing technician out there, say at LP for example, had cranked your hose fitting to tightly to your second stage and the next time you get it serviced, too much torque required to break it free caused the housing to crack, then what? If it's the LDS, they can have it replaced for free. I've seen many instances where accidents can happen, someone drops it, whatever, etc. And good manufacturers back their LDS' and will replace it out AT NO CHARGE whether it was a technician's accident or a diver's.

Why would you go back to an LDS that screwed up your regs the first time around?

undah20 wrote...
So, if you pay say around $35-45 a year (that's what is charged at 6 LDS in the area) and have every component broken down to it's bare essentials, all inspected, cleaned, replaced if necessary and upgraded upon every avail. to do so, put together good or better than new, AND ALL AT NO EXTRA CHARGE, then why wouldn't you?

Because the LDS monkey screwed up your reg the last time and you don't give second chances? Or because you can buy an extra reg as backup online and still save over the LDS price?